The CHAIRMAN. After he was charged, or at any time, did he tell you what had happened?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir. He gave a statement to the police department wherein he stated that he had been in the First Presbyterian Church, that he came out of the First Presbyterian Church, saw the deceased and some of his friends.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be the Disciples in that area.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. He went back in the First Presbyterian Church, up to the loft of the church. He took therefrom a small caliber pistol that he said was hidden in the loft. He then left the church with the pistol.

He was confronted by the deceased and his friends, the Disciples. He thereupon shot the pistol, killing Steve Coffey, then went back into the church, put the gun back up in the loft where he had gotten it and then left the church.

Senator CURTIS. Where is Rollins now?

Mr. KARTON. Rollins is presently confined to the Illinois Youth Commission.

Senator CURTIS. Whereabouts?

Mr. KARTON. I am not sure. There are many centers he might be at. Senator CURTIS. Where could you find out?

Mr. KARTON. From the Illinois Youth Commission in Illinois; the Chicago office.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know whether he pled guilty?

Mr. KARTON. He did plead guilty.

The CHAIRMAN. Before he pled guilty, did he give you a written confession?

Mr. KARTON. He gave us a written confession. Then he was talked to on several occasions while he was in custody at the Audy Home to determine whether or not the confession that he gave was, in fact, true.

The reason that the investigation continued was that several friends of the deceased, Disciples, said in written statements that Rollins didn't, in fact, commit this murder, but that another Ranger by the name of Wayne McIntyre committed the murder. Wayne McIntyre was 17 or 18, I believe, but over the arbitrary line of demarcation.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if they could pin it on McIntyre, he would get dealt with in court as an adult.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. The penalty would be severe.

Mr. KARTON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Likely to be severe if guilty.
Mr. KARTON. A minimum of 14 years.

The CHAIRMAN. Up to what?

Mr. KARTON. Up to life or the electric chair.

The CHAIRMAN. But this 16-year-old boy that actually committed the crime, the one who confessed to it, if convicted, what would happen to him?

Mr. KARTON. As I explained, regardless of any intention of the court, he would be committed to the Illinois Youth Commission, which is what happened.

The CHAIRMAN. That is where he is now, so far as you know?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. That crime was committed last October.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Do I understand that the maximum penalty in Illinois for any kind of crime committed by a person of 17 years or lessMr. KARTON. Sixteen or less.

Senator MUNDT (continuing). Sixteen or less, including murder, is to be committed to the Illinois Youth Commission?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct, Senator.

I might explain that at the time, if he is indicted and tried in criminal court, at the time that there is a judgment entered on a finding of guilty, under the present law the judge does say, "And I sentence you to a term of years"-whatever the judge sentences him to. However, as a practical effect, that sentence's effect is if the boy is retained by the youth commission until he is 21, then thereafter transferred to the penitentiary, or if he is incorrigible and transferred to the penitentiary, then that sentence has meaning for his duration in the penitentiary.

Senator MUNDT. Suppose 1 week after he is transferred to the İllinois Youth Commission, still a boy of 16, he commits a second murder? What happens?

Mr. KARTON. He is in custody at that time. You mean after the Illinois Youth Commission releases him?

Senator MUNDT. No. When he is in custody, he kills one of his associates. Like Valachi, he could hit him with a 2 by 4 and kill him.

Mr. KARTON. If he is still under 16, under those circumstances if he were found guilty, the Illinois Youth Commission might consider he is incorrigible and as soon as he reaches 17 transfer him to the penitentiary.

Senator MUNDT. As long as he is 16 there is no top limit in Illinois to the number of murders he can commit and still be held by the Illinois Youth Commission.

Mr. KARTON. Unless the Illinois Youth Commission considers he is incorrigible.

Senator MUNDT. That does not become operative until he is 17.

Mr. KARTON. Senator, the Family Court Act in Illinois is a very confusing act. It confuses us.

Senator MUNDT. It does not inhibit a habitual criminal very much. He could continue to commit any number of crimes and go scot free as far as severe penalty is concerned, until he gets to be 17.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. They can literally get away with

murder.

The CHAIRMAN. Are many of them getting away with murder?
Senator MUNDT. Is that a State law?

Mr. KARTON. It is a State law, sir.

Senator MUNDT. I am just trying to understand it. You can have any kind of law you want in Illinois so far as I am concerned. I am associating that with the fact that you say you are very disturbed, as a law enforcement officer, that you have an increase in crime. There must be some relationship between those two facts.

Mr. KARTON. I would think so. I might add, in answer to Senator McClellan's question, the vast majority, many times more in number, of the prosecutions involving gang kids take place in the juvenile court, not in the criminal court; in the juvenile court, not in the criminal court.

Senator MUNDT. Let me ask you-do hardened, habitual, mature criminals who have decided upon a life of crime take advantage of that law by trying to induce youngsters to commit the crime for them as their alter ego?

Mr. KARTON. I would if I were involved in it.

Senator MUNDT. Do you find any evidence that youngsters-we know of the two cases of the sons of Mrs. Martin, but are those isolated cases or are there other cases?

Mr. KARTON. In order to answer that question, I would have to go into large phases of our investigations which involve pending indictments, and I would prefer not to. I appreciate that you would like to know, but I don't want to jeopardize any indictments.

Senator MUNDT. I was just talking in general terms. I am not going to ask you about any specifics, but whether there seems to be a kind of trend to take advantage of this juvenile protective law.

Mr. KARTON. I would think that there is a conclusion that one would have to draw.

Senator MUNDT. What was that?

Mr. KARTON. I would think that that is the conclusion that one would have to draw.

Senator CURTIS. Would this be a fair statement of the problem? Back in the sometimes past, with the best of intentions, special laws were enacated in reference to boys of young and tender age as contrasted to older, hardened criminals, and it appears that with the advent of gangs and individuals urging others to commit crimes, that this situation has been taken advantage of.

Mr. KARTON. I would think that that is accurate. The law in Illinois, as it stands now, is a recent law. The law was changed in 1961. Prior to 1961, the law was substantially as it is now with the exception that a juvenile who committed a murder and was convicted of a murder could be sentenced to the penitentiary as an adult.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you a little more about this boy Coffey who was killed. What happened after you got the confession from Rollins? Let me ask first, was that confession in writing?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, it was.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have that?

Mr. KARTON. I do not have it with me. However, I was in contact. with my office in Chicago this morning and a copy of his confession is forthcoming to you.

The CHAIRMAN. A copy of the confession that you are referring to is, you understand, en route here for the committee's records? Mr. KARTON. That is correct, if you so desire it.

The CHAIRMAN. I will ask you when it comes to identify it and upon your identification of it, that it be made a part of the record. I will either insert it or make it an exhibit. It will be made a part of this record if you know that it is the confession.

(The confession of Earnest Rollins referred to above was supplied by Mr. Karton and follows:)

OCTOBER 8, 1967.

Statement given by Earnest Rollins, M/N age 15, of 6627 So. Blackstone, relative to the fatal shooting of Stevie Coffey, M/N age 16, which occurred on 7 October 1967 at approximately 2:30 P.M., in the vicinity of 65th and Woodlawn. Statement given at the DDA#2 Homicide/Sex office, 2nd. floor, 9059 So. Cottage Grove, on 8 October 1967 at 5:15 P.M.

Typed by: Det. John L. Sullivan, #7326, DDA #2 Homicide/Sex.
Questioned by: Det. John C. Boeger, #3492, DDA#2 Homicide/Sex.
Det. BOEGER. What is you name, address, and phone number?

E. ROLLINS. Earnest Rollins, 6627 So. Blackstone, PL-2-0852.

Det. BOEGER. Earnest, I am going to tell you of your constitutional rights: You have a right to remain silent, if you choose not to remain silent anything you say or write can and will be used as evidence against you in court, you have a right to consult a lawyer before any questioning and you have a right to have the lawyer present with you during any questioning, you not only have a right to consult with a lawyer before any questioning but, if you lack the financial ability to retain a lawyer, a lawyer will be appointed to represent you before any questioning, and you may have the appointed lawyer present with you during any questioning knowing and understanding what has just been told you, do you still wish to make a statement?

Det. BOEGER. With whom do you reside at your address?

E. ROLLINS. My mother and father.

Det. BOEGER. Do you attend school, and if so, how far have you gone?

E. ROLLINS. Yes, at Hyde Park High School in my second year.

Det. BOEGER. Do you know where you are now, and why you are here?

E. ROLLINS. At 91st. and Cottage in a Police Station, and I'm here because I shot Stevie Coffey.

Det. BOEGER. Do you know if Stevie Coffee is dead or alive?

E. ROLLINS. He is dead.

Det. BOEGER. You stated you were here because you shot Stevie Coffey, can you tell in your own words what happened?

E. ROLLINS. About 11:00 A.M., yesterday morning, me and some of my friends went up to the First Presbyterian Church, at 6400 So. Kimbark. We all started playing in the Church, and a man told us to stop playing in the Church because we were making too much noise. But we kept on playing and the man started chasing us to get us out of the Church, so thats when I went up to the 3rd. floor and climbed up on a table and went in a hole in the ceiling. Then the guy that was chasing me came up their and saw me and I crawled back further in the hole and thats where I found a 32 six shooter.

Det. BOEGER. Please continue.

E. ROLLINS. I opened up the gun to see if their were any bullets in it, and their were six bullets in it. Then I left the gun up their, and the man told me to get out of the Church and I stood in front of the Church waiting for my other friends. Then a boy named "A.G." came and said that some "Disciples" were coming down from Woodlawn toward 65th. street. Then I kicked on the Church door for the man to open up and then he opened the door and let me in. Then he asked me what did I want, and I told him some "Disciples" were around here. Then I ran upstairs and got this pistol and ran back downstairs and come out of the front door. Then I went toward Woodlawn and then I saw a bunch of "D's" standing on the corner of 65th. and Woodlawn. Then I ran towards the alley so I could get a good shot, and then they started charging, and then I shot one of the boys. Then I looked and see if he was going to fall, and he fell. So the Disciples kept on running toward me and one of the boys shot three times at me, then I ran through the gangway and met Wayne and gave him the gun. Then He said that he was going to go stop him, then he ran through the same gangway that I want through. After that I went back around my house. Thats all.

Det. BOEGER. Do you know who the pastor of the First Presbyterian Church is? E. ROLLINS. Reverend John Fry.

Det. BOEGER. Is he the man that chased you from the Church?

E. ROLLINS. No, it was just a man that worked there.

Det. BOEGER. Did this man at any time see you with the gun?

E. ROLLINS. No.

Det. BOEGER. Why did you shoot at the group of boys?

E. ROLLINS. Because if I didn't shoot at them, they would have got the gun from me, and shot me.

Det. BOEGER. Did you shoot first, or did they shoot first?

E. ROLLINS. I shot first.

Det. BOEGER. How many times did you shoot at the group of boys?

E. ROLLINS. Once.

Det. BOEGER. Do you know where the gun is at this time?

E. ROLLINS. Ennis Coyen had it last.

Det. BOEGER. Who is Ennis Coyen, and where does he live?

E. ROLLINS. He is the chief executioner for the Camanche Rangers, and he lives at 1504 E. 66th. place, on first floor.

Det. BOEGER. Did anybody else participate in this shooting?

E. ROLLINS. Not that I know of.

Det. BOEGER. Did you know the deceased, Stevie Coffey?

E. ROLLINS. Yeah I knew him, we use to go to school together.

Det. BOEGER. Do you know who the gun belongs to?

E. ROLLINS. No.

Det. BOEGER. Do you wish to add anything to this statement that may be beneficial to this investigation?

E. ROLLINS. I wish I hadn't have did it.

Det. BOEGER. After reading this statement consisting of three typewritten pages, and finding the questions asked, and the answers you have given, will you sign this statement?

E. ROLLINS. Yes.

EARNEST ROLLINS.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, after the confession, what happened with respect to the gangsters, the gang leaders, those interested? What effort or action did they take in connection with this confession?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, after he confessed, he was indicted. Even though he was a juvenile, he was indicted. Shortly after his indictment, he advised his attorney, who advised us, that he wished to recant his confession. His attorney brought him to the State's attorney's office and he was there questioned by Mr. Tuite, to whom I referred earlier.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your boss?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct; in my presence.

The CHAIRMAN. In your presence?

Mr. KARTON. That is right. At that time he told us that he really did not do the killing; that Wayne McIntyre did the killing but that McIntyre had talked to him and had told him in substance:

Look, you are a juvenile and if you are found guilty of the murder you will only get six months in the Illinois Youth Commission, but I am not a juvenile and if I am convicted, I could get the electric chair. So you say that you did it. Rollins told us that he didn't want to go along with that, but McIntyre said to him:

Look, I can testify against you and I am going to put it all on you.

Rollins did thereafter, notwithstanding his effort to recant his confession, plead guilty.

The CHAIRMAN. Thereafter, notwithstanding that effort to recant his confession, he pled guilty to the charge?

Mr. KARTON. While he was still 16.

Senator CURTIS. May I inquire right there?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator.

Senator CURTIS. Did you ever find the gun which killed Coffey? Mr. KARTON. Senator, I don't recall. My initial thought was that the weapon was not recovered. However, now that I think of it, I am not quite sure. The gun may have been recovered.

Senator CURTIS. You don't know whether effort was made to find it in the church?

Mr. KARTON. I beg your pardon?

Senator CURTIS. You don't know whether an effort was made to find it in the church?