Mr. KARTON. I don't know of my own knowledge whether there was. Senator CURTIS. Is there anyone in the hearing room who could refresh your memory on that point?

Mr. KARTON. I don't believe so. I have spoken to the other law enforcement officers from Chicago about this case. They don't recall, either.

Senator CURTIS. Now, you were present when Rollins made his original confession.

Mr. KARTON. No, I was not. I was present when he attempted to recant the confession. However, at that time he did acknowledge the fact that he had made the confession, a copy of which we had, a copy of which we read to him.

Senator CURTIS. Now, when the recanting took place, do you recall whether or not he said anything about where the gun came from?

Mr. KARTON. At the time that he came to recant the confession, he denied that the gun was in the church. He denied that he even had the gun. He denied the whole thing. He said that the whole thing was McIntyre's idea. Of course, McIntyre denies this.

Senator CURTIS. Were there eye witnesses to the effect that Rollins did enter the church, come out with a gun, commit the crime and return to the church with the gun?

Mr. KARTON. This is one of our problems, Senator. McIntyre as an eyewitness did say that. However, the other boys, alleged eye witnesses, who were Disciples, said no. They said that Rollins had nothing to do with it; that it was McIntyre.

This is a very serious problem that we run into. Members of one gang testifying against a member or members of another gang. Senator CURTIS. Did Rollins have an attorney?

Mr. KARTON. Rollins did have an attorney. The attorney was appointed for him at the juvenile court. She was a public defender. Her name is Caroline Jaffe.

Senator CURTIS. So, one of two theories must be true: either that Rollins' story that he went into the church, got a gun, killed Coffey, hid the gun in the church, or the story that McIntyre did the killing himself.

Mr. KARTON. Those are the only two stories that we have. I assume one of them is true. However, it wouldn't be the first time that neither one of them was true.

Senator CURTIS. Were any charges brought against McIntyre? Mr. KARTON. No, we didn't bring charges against McIntyre at that time. In light of the fact that Rollins pled guilty, we did not bring charges against McIntyre.

Senator CURTIS. Is McIntyre a member of the Blackstone Rangers? Mr. KARTON. Yes, Senator.

Senator CURTIS. Is he a member of the Main 21?

Mr. KARTON. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know where he is now?

Mr. KARTON. On the street: back in Woodlawn.

Senator CURTIS. Did you assist in the conduct of the trial of Eugene Hairston?

Mr. KARTON. No; I did not. That trial was conducted by Nicholas Motherway and James Shroyer.

Senator CURTIS. You were not present in the courtroom?

Mr. KARTON. No; I was not.

Senator CURTIS. So you have no firsthand knowledge concerning the incident testified to where Mr. Fry was asked to take a back seat; you have no firsthand knowledge?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. May I ask, Mr. Karton, are you a political appointee of Mayor Daley?

Mr. KARTON. No; I am not.

Senator MUNDT. How do you obtain your position?

Mr. KARTON. I was hired by Justice Ward, Justice Daniel Ward, when he was State's attorney of Cook County, and when he was elected to the Supreme Court of Illinois, Mr. Stamos was appointed by the Cook County board as the State's attorney of Cook County and my employment continued under him.

Senator MUNDT. Your original appointment came from Justice Ward?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Before he was a justice?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. How did State's Attorney Ward get his position? Is he appointed by Mayor Daley?

Mr. KARTON. He is elected.

Senator MUNDT. By the people of Cook County?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. The reason I ask this question, Reverend Fry has said before this committee that the reason this great array of charges are made against his operation and against him personally is because Mayor Daley and the Chicago police force are out to get him. He gave us the reasons why he believes this.

He tells us he believes they are out to get him because they feel somehow or other he is interfering with law enforcement or something. Whatever it is, the record will show. So it is important that we know whether they in any way, shape or form, along with Mayor Daley, represent a part of a plan or pattern to get Reverend Fry or to build up Mayor Daley.

Would you be involved in any such conspiracy for any reason whatsoever?

Mr. KARTON. No, Senator. The State's attorney of Cook County, in my opinion, isn't dependent or indebted to anybody. From my experience with him, and from the voice of the National District Attorney's Association which just recently awarded Mr. Stamos their award as an outstanding prosecutor nationally, Mr. Stamos is a fine, professional prosecutor and State's attorney.

You might say that he and the police department and, to that extent, Mayor Daley are conspiring, but against organized and unorganized crime. If Mr. Fry falls in the category of crime or the Rangers do, organized or unorganized, then I suspect he is right in considering that there is a conspiracy against him.

Senator MUNDT. Assuming he was involved in crime.

Mr. KARTON. If he presumes he is involved in crime, then he is right. Senator MUNDT. You see, what we are confronted with is a most disturbing and perplexing problem, in large part by virtue of the rejoinders that Reverend Fry gives to these charges because they are

all based on the concept that the police department and the law enforcement officials are out to get him, that they are framing him, and that all these statements are manufactured in order to discredit him.

Now, I have no personal judgment on it. I suppose that could happen in a big city. It could not happen in South Dakota out in our country, I tell you, but it could happen in a big city.

I can believe almost everything I hear in this hearing and I can disbelieve everything I hear in this hearing. I will say that somebody is going to get a tough rap for perjury before it is over. Somebody is lying through their teeth. We are going to have to proceed down this tortuous trail until we find out.

Between this committee, the Attorney General, and the law enforcement agencies of this Government, we are going to find out.

Mr. KARTON. As a direct answer to your question, Senator, neither the State's attorney, himself, nor any assistants in his office, including me, is engaged in any kind of concerted effort against Reverend Fry because he is Reverend Fry or anybody else because he is who he is. My job is told to me by the State's attorney. His policy is that we are to prosecute for criminal acts whoever the perpetrator may be.

If one perpetrator happens to be involved in many criminal acts or if one group happens to be involved in many criminal acts, then that group is going to receive a lot of attention from the Chicago Police Department and the State's attorney's office.

Senator MUNDT. As I say, it is terribly hard for me to believe that your office or the police department or Mayor Daley, about who I said. yesterday I wish nothing but bad luck politically, I am not protecting him

The CHAIRMAN. You don't want our convention wrecked, do you? Senator MUNDT. I think it will wreck itself.

But I am simply trying to share with you my perplexity as a member of this committee. It is awful hard for me to believe that any one of the three groups, including Mayor Daley could be involved in this kind of stuff.

It is equally hard and even harder for me to believe that a Presbyterian minister in a Presbyterian church should be operating with characters like this, and worse than that, should be involved in the kinds of mischief-making and the kinds of demoralizing activities and criminal activities with which he has been charged. There is direct conflict. I don't know what we can do except continue to grind the grist in this miserable mill until we find the truth.

We were shocked yesterday when a group in Chicago castigated this committee because they said we should not even function, I guess― should not listen to the testimony. I don't know how they can be so wise and know so much without reading the testimony when I have sat through virtually all of it and confess I haven't the remotest idea who is guilty and who is innocent.

But I have a profound conviction somebody is lying and that if we have to stay here until January 1 we ought to find out.

Mr. KARTON. Senator, when I began working in this unit and became more intimately connected with the prosecutions, the stories that I heard, the tales that the witnesses told me, shocked me. The longer I remain with the unit and the more I talk to witnesses and the more I have heard about what is going on, the less shocked I become until

I guess I just became numb to the whole thing. Nothing shocks me any more about this.

Senator CURTIS. I have one question I must ask.

You have used the word "conspiracy." I want to know in what context do you mean it. Did you mean that there was planning and cooperation to do a good job as you saw it in law enforcement or did you mean conspiracy in the sense of picking out an individual or group and planning and working to pin something on to them, guilty or innocent. You meant the former?

Mr. KARTON. Certainly, sir. To that extent, Senator McClellan said your job as Senators on an investigating subcommittee is to investigate organized crime, as part of your job.

The Chicago Police Department and other police departments around the country's job is to react to the crime as it occurs and try to prevent it. Prosecutors locally and nationally are supposed to prosecute crime. If Reverend Fry and the Blackstone Rangers are involved in crime, then all of us are involved in a conspiracy because all of our efforts and energies are directed towards them.

Senator CURTIS. I understood what you meant but after all this record will be printed, it will be read by people later on and the allegation have been made that there is a conspiracy, in an unlawful and wrong sense and after your remark that a conspiracy might exist I thought that the language ought to be clarified.

Mr. KARTON. I appreciate that, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Now let me take up one thing.

Did this boy in his confession say where he got the gun when he went back in the church?

Mr. KARTON. He said he obtained it from a hiding place in the loft. The CHAIRMAN. In the loft?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what he told you. This was last year some time?

Mr. KARTON. In October.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had testimony here from George Rose, Mad Dog Rose, whatever his name is, a third ranking member of the gang, that they kept guns in the loft and also in a tunnel in the church.

Mrs. Martin testified that they kept guns in the church. I don't remember whether she said she could not get up in the loft, I believe. She didn't know what was up there.

This testimony has been before us. Here was one of the youths of this gang charged with murder who said that he went into the church and got a gun out of the loft, went back on the streets and then committed the shooting.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then took the gun back into the church again. Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this before we go to some other cases here.

At this point, I would like to know, since Reverend Fry claims there is a conspiracy against him, he says that he has testified here that he

has furnished bond or helped get bond in some 200 cases-am I right; is that correct?

Senator MUNDT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Some 200 cases for these gang members that he has helped get bond for and provided bond money. In a number of instances, he helped them to get legal counsel.

May I ask you this? During the time that you have been in office serving in the position of assistant district attorney, during your work have you found a single instance, can you recall one time when Reverend Fry cooperated with the officers or gave you any assistance at all in trying to ferret out crime in that area?

Mr. KARTON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Has he ever worked with the law-enforcement officials to your knowledge trying to help clean up this situation?

Mr. KARTON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. After he got the money in this program, got that going, did the program or any leaders of the program in any way cooperate with the law-enforcement officers trying to help relieve this crime-ridden situation?

Mr. KARTON. Not to my knowledge, sir.

I might say in regard to the opening comment that you just made that on at least one occasion when Edward Bey, William Troop, and Lee Jackson were indicted for rape their bonds were set at $10,000 apiece.

The CHAIRMAN. Ten thousand dollars?

Mr. KARTON. Mr. Bey through his counsel called me. We withheld the issues of the warrants. When the grand jury returns the indictment ordinarily a capias issues as a matter of course. We withheld the issuance of that capias until the brother of the victim could be inducted into the Marines at the victim's mother's request. She indicated that she was quite fearful that something would happen to him if these boys were arrested on this particular warrant.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they in custody at the time they were indicted? Mr. KARTON. They were not.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they out on bonds?

Mr. KARTON. They were out in the street.

The CHAIRMAN. They were not under arrest?

Mr. KARTON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. These are indictments found by the grand jury without any previous charge having been made and they not having been taken into custody.

Mr. KARTON. Right. We did that because the victim's mother asked us to in order to allow her son to be inducted into the Marines where she felt he would be safe.

The CHAIRMAN. After you were about to report information about the rape or crime

Mr. KARTON. At this point, the alleged crime.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon.

Mr. KARTON. I don't mean to hedge because the indictment is still pending. It is an alleged crime at this point.

The CHAIRMAN. Äfter you got the information about the alleged crime, you did not immediately arrest those who were accused or whom the information indicated may have committed the crime. Instead, in