this instance, the mother asked you to hold it up until she could get her son in the Marines. Why?

Mr. KARTON. She said she was afraid that something would happen to him. She told me she had been threatened by members of the gang if her daughter cooperated with us. She told me that her son had been threatened and she was fearful.

Senator CURTIS. Which gang?

Mr. KARTON. The Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. So you waited until you got the indictment and you did not serve the warrants immediately?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, why? Waiting for him to get in the service? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what else occurred at that time. I don't know what it was. You started to tell us something else.

Mr. KARTON. In the courtroom, the three boys-well, prior to the time they were in court this attorney, who was from a legal aid office in the Woodlawn area, called me and asked me if it were true that Bey was the subject of an outstanding warrant. I told him that it was true. He wanted to know what the bond was. I told him that the bond was set at $10,000 which required $1,000 cash.

The CHAIRMAN. Is he one of the Main 21?

Mr. KARTON. Yes. He is an associate vocational education supervisor or assistant.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. KARTON. The attorney advised me that they were trying to locate Bey to surrender him on the warrant and he wanted to know what the bond was. I told him what the bond was. Twenty minutes later, he called me back to tell me that they had located Bey and were surrendering him and he had $1,000 for the bond.

Now, he didn't know that the bond was $1,000 until 20 minutes earlier. It took him all of 20 minutes to come up with $1,000 cash for the bond. He surrendered himself. Shortly thereafter, Troop was arrested and Jackson was arrested.

The CHAIRMAN. Members of Main 21?

Mr. KARTON. All three of them are members of the Main 21.
The CHAIRMAN. All three of them employed in this project?
Mr. KARTON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Did this rape occur at one of these centers?

Mr. KARTON. No; it did not. The rape allegedly occurred in an apartment, in a hotel that had been leased to Mr. Hairston. The CHAIRMAN. Had been leased to Hairston?

Mr. KARTON. But Hairston was no longer occupying it because he was in custody under the indictment under which he was subsequently found guilty.

The CHAIRMAN. After Hairston went to jail was that hotel primarily occupied or in charge of the Blackstone Rangers?

Mr. KARTON. The suite was.

The CHAIRMAN. The suite was?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. KARTON. Troop also came up with $1,000 for his bond within an hour or so.

Now, Jackson wasn't out on bond. An attorney from the legal aid project appeared in court before the judge on a motion to reduce the bond. He stated to the judge that the reason he wanted the bond reduced was that the Woodlawn Organization had put up the money for the bond, the other $2,000, and they were a little bit short of funds and they only had another $500 that they could spare and so would the judge please consider reducing the bond to a $5,000 bond requiring $500 cash so that the Woodlawn Organization could make bond for the third man, and the judge complied.

The CHAIRMAN. He complied?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

Senator MUNDT. They used the Woodlawn Organization and the Blackstone Rangers intermittently and interchangeably?

Mr. KARTON. No. In these particular instances, the three boys were members of the Main 21 of the Blackstone Rangers. The addresses they gave on the bond, they put down the First Presbyterian Church at 64th and Kimbark. The attorney who represented them in court said in court that the money for their bonds had been put up by the Woodlawn Organization.

Senator MUNDT. Does Reverend Fry have any connection with the Woodlawn Organization?

Mr. KARTON. Only through the OEO grant. Other than that, he has no official connection that I know of.

Senator CURTIS. But it is centered in the church.

Mr. KARTON. One of their centers is in the church. One of the Woodlawn Organization's job training centers is in the First Presbyterian Church.

Senator MUNDT. The Woodlawn Organization has a contract with the Federal Government to conduct the OEO project?

Mr. KARTON. That is right. They are the grantee of the OEO grant. Senator MUNDT. We have here now the contract with the Federal Government. The Federal Government is paying to carry out some kind of OEO project which provides the bonds for these members of the Black Rangers?

Mr. KARTON. That is their connection. I understand that the Woodlawn Organization has other sources of income. I do not mean to imply that they used the Federal money because I have no knowledge of that.

Senator MUNDT. I am questioning the judgment of somebody in the Federal Government giving a Federal contract to an organization involved in providing bonds for criminals. I don't think it is Federal money, either, but I think somebody in the Federal Government is a knucklehead to give a contract to that kind of an outfit.

Mr. KARTON. I might say at this point that the indictments against the three boys are still pending. They have not been found guilty of that crime yet.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know of any other instances where the Woodlawn Organization has provided bonds?

Mr. KARTON. That is the only one where the attorney actually said that the Woodlawn Organization had made bond.

Senator MUNDT. Straighten me out. I am not a lawyer.

What is the difference between a public defender and a legal aid society?

Mr. KARTON. The public defender in Cook County, there is one public defender of Cook County who has many assistants. He is appointed by the county board.

Senator MUNDT. Paid by the taxpayers?

Mr. KARTON. Paid by the taxpayers through the county.

Senator MUNDT. To represent people who otherwise would not be able to afford a lawyer?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. His assistants carry on the same function.

Senator MUNDT. That being true, where does the legal aid project come in?

Mr. KARTON. The legal aid project also does the same thing.
Senator MUNDT. Who pays them?

Mr. KARTON. I imagine they are financed by governmental grants although I am not sure of that; I don't know what their actual organization is.

Senator MUNDT. How does an individual who gets himself in the clink and doesn't have any money-who has no friends to get him a lawyer-decide whether he gets himself a public defender lawyer or a legal aid project lawyer?

Mr. KARTON. From my understanding, if he has no contacts other than himself and is unable to contact any attorney, he then receives a public defender as appointed by the court.

If he has a family who contacts a legal aid attorney that he would prefer, then he would be represented by a legal aid attorney who would file his appearance on the defendant's behalf.

Senator MUNDT. Either he, his family, or his friends can determine which type of lawyer he gets, public defender or legal aid?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

I might point out that the public defender's office in Cook County under Gerald Getty who is the public defender of Cook County, has a very large volume of cases to handle. One of the significant reasons for that is because they are a group of fine lawyers who do an excellent job in representing their clients, the indigent defendants.

Senator CURTIS. Isn't this true that in general legal aid societies are non-Government, sort of a charitable setup to help indigent people with legal problems which may or may not be criminal?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. And in some communities they might get money from various sources?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe that some of the legal aid programs in Woodlawn do receive Federal financing but others do not to the best of my knowledge and they are charitably financed.

Senator CURTIS. Now it has been testified here that the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers in the First Presbyterian Church in Chicago-I am not prepared to say that that has not been denied, my best recollection is that it is not but we will have to search the record-but in any event, these three defendants who gave, to your knowledge, as their address the First Presbyterian Church were Blackstone Rangers? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Karton, you were talking in your colloquy with the chairman about the case of a girl who has a case pending involving

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alleged rape. Her family felt that her brother would be in jeopardy, for his life I presume, if the family testified and so they requested that the case be delayed until the older brother was inducted into the Armed Forces; is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct, Senator.

Senator MUNDT. He apparently felt he would be safer at Khe Sanh than he would be on the streets of Chicago. Now in that statement you talked about the girl giving information regarding a vice operation controlled by the Rangers. That is the first time we have heard in this testimony about a vice operation controlled by the Rangers.

We have had testimony about prostitution taking place in the church. When I called it prostitution, Mrs. Martin said it was not so because it was not for pay.

Mr. KARTON. When I am talking about vice operation I am talking about the character of the actions whether it be for profit or not for profit.

Senator MUNDT. Do you have any other information you can give us about the vice operation controlled by the Rangers or participated in by the Rangers, above and beyond what this girl has testified about? Mr. KARTON. Am I correct in assuming that when we are talking about vice at this point we are talking about

Senator MUNDT. For pay or not for pay.

Mr. KARTON. And we are talking about sexual acts regarding girls and not any other area of vice?

Senator MUNDT. That is right.

Mr. KARTON. I have talked to a number of other people who substantiate what this girl has told me in essence and insofar as specific examples are concerned.

Senator MUNDT. So your statement that there is a vice operation which is conducted by the Rangers-we have defined through our mutual understanding what we mean by vice operations-is not based solely on the testimony of this one girl?

Mr. KARTON. That is right.

Senator CURTIS. Tell us about the case where a girl was a complainant and instead of intimidation she was given money or a bribe to not prosecute?

First let me ask you how much direct information do you have on that and is there somebody that has more direct information if yours is not direct?

Mr. KARTON. The information I have is from the girl.

Senator CURTIS. You did talk to her?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

However, I would prefer only to speak in most general terms regarding that. This is involved also in another case that is pending and I wouldn't want to jeopardize the case. So I would not at this time like to give you any details as to the case. It would be too easily identified, I am afraid.

Senator CURTIS. You would prefer not to be asked the details as to where the money came from or delivered by whom? I don't want to press you. It is a long established practice of this committee to do everything possible not to prejudice trials or cause mistrials. So I will withdraw the question.

Mr. KARTON. Thank you very much, Senator.

Senator MUNDT. I would like to turn our attention to another part of the problem in which you mention to our staff that weapons are almost never recovered when arrests are made. I think you are not sure whether in the case we were talking about-the murder-the pistol was found in the loft or was recovered.

You said that the Rangerettes-we have heard them described by Mrs. Martin who was recreation officer for the Rangerettes for a while-hide the weapons and make it difficult for the police who are prohibited from searching them on the streets.

Is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Is that due to an ordinance, or just what?

Mr. KARTON. That, I believe, is a police directive. The police officers on the street invariably are men and the reason for the directive is

obvious.

Senator MUNDT. A policewoman would be allowed to do it?

Mr. KARTON. Right. A police matron would be allowed to search a girl on the street.

Senator MUNDT. Is it your understanding among the Rangers that one of the great offenses is to be caught with a weapon on your person? Mr. KARTON. That is my understanding.

Senator MUNDT. Have there been any cases of Rangers who have have been caught with weapons on their person and, if so, what happened to them?

Mr. KARTON. I can't remember one. As a matter of fact, there are instances where Rangers have been arrested almost in what we refer to as nonview situation, by a police officer who happened to be at the scene when the crime took place.

The crime in many instances was one of violence wherein a weapon was used. If the police officer were as little as 2 minutes removed from the actual occurrence, the weapon just isn't found. It is just disposed of.

Senator MUNDT. Have you any information indicating "yes" or "no" as to whether any of these beatings provided by the Rangers against those who engage in infraction of Ranger rules-whether any of these beatings have occurred in the church?

Mr. KARTON. That is only one instance I have information about. That information was given to me by three different boys.

Senator MUNDT. Will you tell us about that incident?

Mr. KARTON. They told me that there was a meeting in the church of the Rangers and that the leadership of the Rangers used this particular boy as an example to show what happens in the event that you are caught with a weapon and they beat him pretty severely according to these boys.

Senator MUNDT. Are you talking about Reverend Fry's First Presbyterian Church?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Three different boys told you that?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. Did their stories jibe sufficiently to indicate that their reports were accurate?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; they did.