Senator MUNDT. Did they indicate whether or not Reverend Fry knew about those Rangers beatings?

Mr. KARTON. They did not indicate to me whether or not he knew. They did indicate to me he was not present.

The CHAIRMAN. I have a notation here from a witness sheet, I haven't discussed this matter with you, personally, but I note on the witness sheet here, you had referred to it earlier, about last year, the latter part of last year, there was some cooperation from citizens of the community.

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, what happened when those citizens showed some evidence or began to give some cooperation to law-enforcement officers?

Mr. KARTON. One boy was shot at in school shortly after he came forward.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by came forward?

Mr. KARTON. He came to the police. He told the police what he knew about a particular instance. He gave my office information about that particular instance, that particular occurrence which he witnessed.

I think it was 3 days later he wasn't in school. He was missing. We were very concerned about it. He turned up much later in the day. He had obviously been beaten. We asked him what happened. He told us that he had gone to school that morning. His mother dropped him off to school. He entered the school.

He was thereupon accosted by a member of the Rangers and was shot at in the school. He thereupon turned and ran, was caught by two other Rangers, initially, and then a third one came up and they severely beat him for cooperating to that extent.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, he was testifying or giving you information about a murder; was he not?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; he was.

The CHAIRMAN. He had witnessed a shooting; had he not?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. He was cooperating with the law-enforcement officers?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. They shot at him in school, chased him, caught him, and beat him?

Mr. KARTON. That is right. The school, incidentally, is the Wadsworth School. I believe you have already heard from an affidavit that was read to you by the principal, Mr. Yakir Korey.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the school of which he is principal?
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the school which this boy was attending?
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. This corroborates the statement of the principal of the school that those children were there, many of them, under fear and under intimidation?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I note here-and this is what my question primarily related to and not the incident to which you have referred. I have it

here, and you correct this because I have not talked to you-in September and October 1967, there was an increase in the number of private citizens coming forward and cooperating with the police and State's attorney office regarding teenage terror.

Is that correct?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. This notation I have here says some of these citizens were beat by gang members?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Those that came to you and undertook to cooperate? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us any general idea of the number? Mr. KARTON. According to the people who stopped cooperating with us, as a result of the beatings, and the reasons that they gave for refusing thereafter to cooperate with us was that they had been beaten. There were six or eight.

The CHAIRMAN. Six or eight citizens?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct. Mostly teenagers. When I say "citizens," I mean their parents cooperated to the extent that they brought the boys to our office and directed them to cooperate.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be citizens cooperating where the parents were bringing them, they were undertaking to cooperate with the police and have their children tell what they knew?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. In an effort to aid the police?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You say five or six or seven of them were beaten up? Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any personal evidence of this? Did you see any physical evidence of it on these persons?

Mr. KARTON. The only one I spoke to in person-I spoke to others on the phone--was that one boy I mentioned who was shot at and he was obviously beaten.

The CHAIRMAN. He was obviously beaten?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the one that you testified about of your own knowledge?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. I notice another statement here. Some of them were offered substantial bribes by the gang leaders. Do you have any information on that?

Mr. KARTON. Yes; there were two that I know of, one of whom was the case about which Senator Curtis asked and then I appreciated his withdrawing the question.

The other was Mrs. Martin. While she was living on Sedgewick she received a note that was slid under her door. That note read, in substance, that $10,000 is yours or a paid-up 1967 station wagon with title and $7,000 if you leave town."

And it was signed "B-S" which stood for Blackstone. Then below that B-S was "Don't testify."

Now I don't have that note with me. However, a copy of that note is also forthcoming.

The CHAIRMAN. It is on its way?
Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

(The text of the note follows:)

If you leave this city, $10,000 is yours. Or a paid for, with title, 1967 station wagon plus $7,000. Please go without blood. Don't testify.

Don't testify.

B. S.

Senator MUNDT. Before we leave this matter of bribery, in 1967 I believe that five different mothers complained to the police department that their 8-, 9-, 10-year-old children had been intimidated to pay dues to the Rangers.

Are you familiar with that?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, sir, I am, Senator.

They had complained that their boys had been intimidated by members of the gangs and attempts at extortion were made at school. The mothers were very upset. They went to the police. The police report came to my attention.

However, the case never went any further than that because the police reports that I saw as well as the one mother to whom I spoke said she and the other mothers went to the church, the First Presbyterian Church, and complained to Reverend Fry about the Blackstone Rangers.

Senator MUNDT. Complained to Reverend Fry directly?

Mr. KARTON. Right; about the activities of the Rangers with regard to their children.

Fry, according to these women, Reverend Fry told them, "When something like that happens, you don't go to the police; you talk to Jeff Fort and he will straighten the whole thing out." They did thereafter talk to Jeff Fort and that is the last time that the police ever heard any complaints from these mothers.

Senator MUNDT. The mothers said that Reverend Fry told them when something like this happened to not go to the police, but to go to Jeff Fort?

Mr. KARTON. That is right.

Senator MUNDT. You talked to these mothers yourself?

Mr. KARTON. I only talked to one of the mothers, myself.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know who she is? I don't want to ask you her name because in this horror chamber in which he is alleged to be existing an edifice looking something like a church-I don't want to get somebody else involved until we get to the real facts of the story.

But you know the mother, you know her name?

Mr. KARTON. Yes, I can get her name if necessary but I prefer not to. Senator MUNDT. I am sorry, I didn't get the answer.

Mr. KARTON. I can get her name. I would prefer not to.

Senator MUNDT. I am not going to ask you because if in fact, any part of this story is correct, we do not want to subject her to intimidation.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will take a 2-minute recess. (Members present at time of recess: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.)

(A 2-minute recess was taken.)

(Members present at time of convening after recess: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.)

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Karton, I suspect on occasion some of these youngsters come from fine homes of the black people in Chicago who are law obeying people.

What happens if one of their children, or anybody else's, acts as a spy or an informant on the Rangers and talks to the police?

Mr. KARTON. From the boys I have talked to they don't have many spies, as you characterize them.

Senator MUNDT. Do you call them informants?

Mr. KARTON. Informants are hard to come by and much harder to keep, once they are found out as informants.

Senator MUNDT. Do you have any knowledge of any boys or girls who have been informants?

Mr. KARTON. Informants to the extent they were not actually victims in the case to supply us with information?

Senator MUNDT. Informants who turn state's evidence or talk to the police. Of course, the girl I suppose would be in that category; she was the victim.

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. But those who might have observed some crime or have witnessed it, you say this is hard to come by?

Mr. KARTON. They don't come forward and testify against members of the gang.

Senator MUNDT. Do you think that is because of the atmosphere of intimidation that prevails?

Mr. KARTON. From what they told me, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had some testimony here that these youths are made to join these gangs. In other words, they have no choice. There are many in this that have no choice.

The mother of these two Martin boys testified that her boys had to belong. She had to provide dues money for them otherwise they got beat up.

What do you know about their recruiting practices?

Mr. KARTON. Senator, there was a case that was tried in late 1967, in the criminal court, that deals with this very point.

The defendants were two boys named Lawrence Cochran and William Cannon. Cochran was 16, Cannon was 17. The testimony in that trial went like this.

On July 25, 1966 in the afternoon these two boys who were members of the Dell Vikings, which at that time was affiliated with the Rangers and I understand is now affiliated with The Disciples-it seems to have been a change of allegiance-at that time it was affiliated with the Rangers, were at a playground located at 41st and Indiana Avenue in Chicago.

At that playground there were five boys playing basketball. These two fellows with a third fellow named Arthur Johnson who was 17 who acted as lookout according to the testimony, they talked to these five boys and they said, "All right, we are going to a meeting of the Dell Vikings. Who wants to join?"

I again mention the Dell Vikings were then part of the Blackstone Rangers. Three of those boys said they wanted to join. So Cochran and Cannon took those three boys and put them on one side of the basket. The other two said they didn't want to join.

So Cochran and Cannon put them on the other side of the basket. The CHAIRMAN. Who are Cochran and Cannon?

Mr. KARTON. Members of the Dell Vikings.

They then asked the two boys that were on the left side of the basket, "Are you sure you don't want to join?"

The boys said, "We don't want to join."

The boys were Anthony Smith who was 14 and Donald Hopkins, Jr., who was 15.

"Are you sure you don't want to join?"

"We are sure we don't want to join."

At that point Cochran told Cannon, "Burn them." Cannon did. He took out a gun from his pocket and he shot them both and he killed them. They were found guilty by a jury in Cook County in the fall of 1967 and sentenced to die in the electric chair for that offense. Senator CURTIS. Did they die in the electric chair?

Mr. KARTON. No. There are appeals that go through as a matter of course in order to protect someone who might be wrongfully

convicted.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a clear-cut case of conviction for this type of strong-armed coercion and force to compel them to join?

Mr. KARTON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. In this instance the penalty was death right on the spot?

Mr. KARTON. It was the penalty imposed before the Witherspoon case. That was the penalty imposed by the court which was imposed prior to the Supreme Court case.

The CHAIRMAN. The penalty for not joining was death?

Mr. KARTON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. They didn't have a trial?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. It was death on the spot?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. This organization of which they were members and for which they were recruiting was at that time a part of this overall Blackstone Rangers?

Mr. KARTON. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Are these facts known? Are the things you have related to us this morning known generally to the citizenship of that community?

Mr. KARTON. Of the Woodlawn community?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. KARTON. I would say so, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you say that they are pretty much common knowledge to the people in that community?

Mr. KARTON. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How about Reverend Fry?