(The following letter was submitted by William W. Brackett on behalf of Charles LaPaglia :)

Mr. CHARLES LA PAGLIA,

5222 South Kenwood, Chicago, Ill.

MAY 6, 1965.

DEAR CHUCK: I am very sorry to receive your letter of May 4th advising me of your intention to leave the Commission-even under the circumstances of your beginning college full time. However, I must admit that I had somewhat despaired of your ever getting back to finish the degree, so I'm glad that you decided to work at it. I have no question about your future successes. I'm sure that you will have many of them.

I have not been entirely familiar with the pressure that you have been under to try to do so many things, but I hope that this decision works out in a manner which is to your advantage.

Obviously, you will leave a gap in the Commission which will be difficult to fill, but nevertheless, our best wishes go with you and I hope that we will remain in touch with each other in the future.

Yours sincerely,

CHARLES P. LIVERMORE,

Executive Director.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know what the facts are.

What are your special duties now at the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. We are specifically to work with the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. To work with the Blackstone Rangers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you work with anybody else?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Just the Rangers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Just the Rangers; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your work with the Rangers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. What does it involve?

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever is involved; yes.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. It involves a whole range of different things. It involves obtaining legal services.

The CHAIRMAN. You are hired to obtain legal services for the Rangers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. In part.

The CHAIRMAN. That is one of your missions, one of your jobs?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is one of my jobs.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the other?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The other job is to involve them in constructive activities. This includes meeting with them, talking about some of the alternatives which they might have for constructive activities. It includes things like writing proposals, working with agencies that might possibly work with the Rangers in providing services for them. The CHAIRMAN. What kinds of services?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Anything from—

The CHAIRMAN. Give us some examples.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Well, I have worked with the St. Ambrose Church, St. Cyril's Church.

The CHAIRMAN. You are working with another church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. St. Ann's Church in trying to help them establish dances for Rangers in their churches.

The CHAIRMAN. Establish dances?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Dances, recreation programs for Rangers in their churches. I have worked with the Chicago Theological Seminary in helping

The CHAIRMAN. Did they ever establish dances or recreation programs for them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Which church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. St. Ambrose Church has, St. Cyril's Church has, St. Ann's Church has, Furman House has.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of programs?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. In the three churches-well, a combination of programs. Originally, in most of these churches, the programs that we established were dances, programs of that sort. But as I have worked with these churches, and as they have worked with the Rangers, and as a kind of mutual trust has begun to develop, a whole series of different kinds of programs have developed.

For example, at Furman House, at this point, the Rangers are involved in developing a full-time summer program for young children in the neighborhood.

At St. Cyril's Church, they were running a tutoring program for the last year. They have also recently begun to develop a GED program, which is general education development, trying to get high school diplomas.

Senator CURTIS. Are these things under your supervision that you are talking about?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They are not directly under my supervision. I work with the church in terms of their relationship with the Rangers in developing these programs. It is largely a communications problem. Senator CURTIS. Are they part of this OEO project?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, sir; they are not.

The CHAIRMAN. Was it part of your duties also in securing legal counsel to defend them when they got in trouble?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir; it was.

The CHAIRMAN. And making bonds for them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. And making bonds.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they keep you pretty busy making bonds?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Fairly busy, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Fairly busy.

Over 200 bonds you had to make during that period of time, wasn't it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is a conservative estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a conservative estimate?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems that one of the principal activities of the Rangers is getting into trouble, if you had that many bonds to make. Or is it altogether just spite and activities of the police without justification? Which do you say it is?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I say in the majority of the cases, it has to do with the police without any justification. I shouldn't say without any justification, but I would say that the justification is that they feel these guys are criminals and they should be taken off the street legally, illegally. It doesn't seem to make any difference.

The CHAIRMAN. You believe what?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That their justification, the police, is that the Rangers should be taken off the street by illegal means or legal means. It does not make any difference.

The CHAIRMAN. So you think they just have it in for the Rangers. Do you know of the Rangers engaging in any unlawful projects or activities?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not firsthand, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know it secondhand?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Well, I have heard all sorts of allegations. I have worked with the Rangers on these kinds of allegations.

The CHAIRMAN. You have? You have worked to find out whether the allegations were true or not?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir; I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you ever find any of the allegations to be true? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Well, that is a little bit ambiguous.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I say it is a bit ambiguous. For example, in my statement I mentioned that there was an extensive extortion going on at Hyde Park High School and that the Rangers were being blamed for it. I did go to talk to the principal, Mr. Blythe, at the time, to talk about the extortion. He did, in fact, say there was extortion, but he had no proof that the Rangers were involved in it.

In that sense, yes, there were probably Rangers there who were involved in extortion; that is, extortion of quarters, dimes, that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. Working as close as you do with the Rangers, you would pretty well know-as I understand it, you devote all your time to them; that is what you were hired for.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Working as closely as you do with them, if they were engaged in the pursuit of crime, primarily in extortion, threats, coercion, in peddling of marihuana, and other activities that you have heard testified to here by witnesses-murder, assaults, shootings—if they were engaged in that kind of activity, would you not be in a position pretty much to know about it, as closely as you work with them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes. I think if they were engaged as an organization in that kind of activity, I would by now have some sense that they were. But let me explain one thing.

When we began, first began, working with the Rangers 2 years ago, they were pretty much alienated from any institution in the Woodlawn area. They had nothing to do with any of these institutions. They were, in fact, meeting in playgrounds and the park and that kind of places. They had had a number of bad experiences with different kinds of agencies and were not very trusting of any agency.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you at that point: Are they very trustworthy?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Are individual members——

The CHAIRMAN. They didn't trust agencies. Are they very trustworthy themselves?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I think there are individual members that are very trustworthy, if you are talking about the relationship to me and the kinds of things that would be lies, whether or not they tell me lies. I think a couple of members at this point are very trustworthy. The CHAIRMAN. A couple of them.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. A number of the leaders that I have close-
The CHAIRMAN. Whom do you call trustworthy?

Mr. LAPAGLIA (continuing). That I have personal contact with. I would call Eugene Hairston trustworthy; Jeff Fort. I would certainly call people like Bernard Green trustworthy.

The CHAIRMAN. These are the ones that have the longest criminal records that you are mentioning.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I understand that. It was only after longThe CHAIRMAN. Is that one of the attributes of trustworthiness in your judgment? Are you judging them on that basis?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I am not judging them on the basis of whether or not they have a criminal record. That is the point.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not. Does that factor enter into your judg ment about the trustworthiness?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. It enters into it in the sense that I feel that their criminal record is exactly what has kept people away from them and our whole position is that we want to ignore that criminal past and use this organization for possible constructive activities.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that is why people stay away from them. I see some of them give themselves names-the title "Mad Dog.” Which one is that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. George Rose.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that have some significance of why people want to stay away from them, in your judgment? You were close

to them.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. You have to understand that I am a white man, sir, and that if Mad Dog was a matter of fact, that I would have been in jeopardy, would have been beaten, and so on and so forth. The CHAIRMAN. Are you a member of the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I am not.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any Blackstone Ranger who is a member of the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been working with them 2 years. You are not even a church member. The church is hiring you. You have been working with these youths for 2 years and haven't gotten a conversion yet. Is that right?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is right, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you really try?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is not my intent.
The CHAIRMAN. It is not your intent?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not concerned about that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is not my concern.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. Maybe I am somewhat antiquated as to the mission of the church.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of guns being stored in the church, other than those that were stored in the safe, about which everybody has testified the instance when they were brought in?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I do not, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know of guns being in the tunnel, stored in the tunnel?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No: I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. In the loft of the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the Rangers in possession of and carrying guns there in the church at any time?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. None of these 21, Main 21, especially?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You never saw any guns; as far as you know they don't possess the guns?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They would never think of doing this in front of me. They certainly do not trust me that much.

The CHAIRMAN. They don't trust you that much?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, they do not trust me that much.

The CHAIRMAN. They wouldn't think of doing it in front of you. You wouldn't tell the police if you saw 100 guns, would you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That has nothing to do with what they feel that I might do.

The CHAIRMAN. I know. But would you? Let's find out now. Let's let them know whether they can trust you in that respect. Would you? Mr. LAPAGLIA. If there were 100 guns in the church, I believe my position would be that either those guns be gotten rid of or that I would turn them over to the police; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't say in the church. If you had seen them with guns, are you telling me now you wouldn't report them? If they were doing something illegally with guns, you wouldn't report them? Mr. LAPAGLIA. It is a hypothetical situation. I have no idea what

I would do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you cooperate with law enforcement officials to try to clean out this condition down there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I believe that we are cooperating.
The CHAIRMAN. You believe you are cooperating?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. I believe we are.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever been to them and tried to help them solve a single crime that was committed in that area?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I think we have been trying to help them solve it by involving the Rangers in constructive activities.

The CHAIRMAN. You help them solve it by getting the Rangers out of jail as fast as they get in, aren't you, getting them back on the street as quickly as you can?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. Our point is that

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead and answer.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. We want to provide them with bonds and legal services like any other citizen in these United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, then, have you ever, since you have been working there, gone to the police or any law enforcement authority trying to cooperate with them and help them to give them any information that you may have about violations of law among the Rangers or anyone else in that community? Have you done that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir. I have been in to talk to Commander Griffin. I have been in to talk to Sgt. Garland Davis, and not about any specific crimes.

The CHAIRMAN. You had visits with them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I have had visits with them.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about trying to help them as a citizen, to go in and try to help them clean out their lawlessness in that area. Have you done that in any degree?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I believe we disagree on this, but I believe we have; not by working directly with the police, but by trying to involveThe CHAIRMAN. When you don't work directly with them; you are not cooperating very much, are you? How can you cooperate when you are not working with them?