Senator CURTIS. It says center chief, $6,000. He was put on September 1, 1967, and he is still on the payroll. Do you know what his duties are?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. As center chief? Is that his position?

Senator CURTIS. That is what it says here.

Do you know what he does?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. As center chief, he is responsible for making sure that the guys again, I am not that familiar with all his responsibilities because I am not that familiar with the program. But, as I understand it, he makes sure that guys are there. Generally, as a supervisor. Senator CURTIS. Do you know Assistant War Lord William Troop? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't know him under that title. But I do know William Troop.

Senator CURTIS. Is he sometimes called "Sweet Jones"?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. He is an instructor?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am not sure, but I assume he is.

Senator CURTIS. It says he is an instructor at $5,200.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

Senator CURTIS. Still there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. What does he do?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I understand that the program he teaches is basic literacy, basic mathematics through program learning devices.

Senator CURTIS. You don't know what he teaches?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't know the contents of the work program.
Senator CURTIS. Did you ever see him conduct a class?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I have seen him up in the center just about every day. I have never seen him conduct a class personally.

Senator CURTIS. Now let me ask you. În all your experience there, how many times have you ever seen instruction going on in subjects intended to be taught there according to the Government grant?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Only once or twice was I up there concerned with what was going on. Again, there were guys there. They were bent over notebooks. It wasn't anything like a traditional classroom and classes around here, but they were there, and there were workbooks. That is all I know.

Senator CURTIS. Have you ever seen any guns in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, I have not.

Senator CURTIS. Did you ever draw any pay from the OEO directly or indirectly?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator CURTIS. From the Rangers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator CURTIS. You have never seen any guns whatever in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. Again, with the exception of those guns that had been collected in July.

Senator CURTIS. Where did you collect those?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Where were they collected?

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They were collected from all over. They were collected in the process of 2 days on the 3d or 4th of July.

Senator CURTIS. Who had them before they were collected?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. I have no idea who had them.

Senator CURTIS. Did they go out and steal them? Who had them? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I would imagine individual members from all around. In fact, at one point

Senator CURTIS. Members of what?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Of the organization.
Senator CURTIS. What organization?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The Blackstone Rangers.

Senator CURTIS. They brought in how many guns?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I just don't remember what the count was.
Senator CURTIS. Did they bring in all their guns?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I doubt it very much.

Senator CURTIS. You doubt it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I doubt it.

Senator CURTIS. Were any of them involved in any shootings after this time of turning in the guns-or alleged to be involved in shootings after that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. Since you have been working

Senator MUNDT. Will you yield a minute?

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Were you there when the police came and tried to get Reverend Fry to give them the guns? You know there was a kind of 30-day understanding?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes. As a matter of fact, we were the ones that initiated that meeting. We called the police, and we called the Treasury Department for them.

Senator MUNDT. There was some kind of dispute as to whether you should turn in the guns to the police or not. What was that dispute? Reverend Fry thought it was the police or somebody had not fulfilled their part of the contract?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The dispute was a simple one. We were in a position of sort of a middleman. There was an agreement made on both parts, one that the Rangers would turn in their guns, the other that the Rangers would be protected from the Disciples. Do you want the details of that?

Senator MUNDT. Well, it was a dispute between Reverend Fry and Commander Griffin or some other police officers?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The dispute was a simple one. We were in a position that we could not say to the police that we will turn over-and I think Reverend Fry probably put this pretty well, that we couldn't turn over the guns to the police without being in bad faith with the Rangers who were not refusing to-they could have demanded, asked that we do. We were just a third party. We would not volunteer those guns. Senator MUNDT. Is this about what happened? The police came in to get the guns?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The police came in and the Treasury Department came in. There was a discussion of whether or not there was anything that could be done, given that the Rangers felt that the police and Treasury Department had acted in bad faith. The upshot of that meeting was that the police and Treasury Department said no. I don't remember any actual demand for guns, but Reverend Fry certainly

indicated to the police and Treasury Department that we were in a very bad position. We could not act in bad faith and just say: "We are all for you guys, and we are going to turn over these weapons." But we kept them securely locked in the safe.

Senator MUNDT. At the end of the discussion, anyhow, the police did not get the guns. They remained in the safe.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is right.

Senator MUNDT. At some later date the police got some kind of legal right to come in and get the guns. They did finally get them? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, under another pretense, but they did finally come in and get them.

Senator MUNDT. Some 56 or 58 items. How much time elapsed between the time they got the guns and the time this dispute that you have been describing took place?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am sorry. The dispute between the

Senator MUNDT. How much time elapsed between the meeting with the police where you had the dispute about whether or not the police had fulfilled their part of the contract and the later date when they did come in to get the guns? The next day, the next month? How long between?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. It was just shortly over 30 days, which was the time period in which both parties were supposed to fulfill the agreement. I remember at the end of 30 days I was becoming quite anxious. Reverend Fry had been out of town when the guns were turned in. When he came back from out of town and the 30 days had elapsed, I began pressing him about letting us get this thing settled.

Senator MUNDT. You know the date when the guns were turned in, July 3 and 4?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. About what was the date of the dispute with the police? They came up and met with you and Reverend Fry and you said: "Look, we can't act in bad faith?" What date was that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. As I remember, it was just shortly after August 3 or 4. Senator MUNDT. About 30 days?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. They did not get the guns yet? I am trying to find out when did they get the guns.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. November.

Senator MUNDT. November?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes. November something, the 21st.

Senator MUNDT. You kept them October and November for another, roughly, 60 or 70 days?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. More than that. We carried them from July, August, September, October, November.

Senator MUNDT. After the dispute you kept them there from the third or fourth day of August to November?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. How did they get the guns in?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They came in with a warrant alleging that they had information from an informer that the guns were being stored in the safe and being taken out by the Rangers for the weekly meetings in order to intimidate the membership.

Senator MUNDT. So they took them with legal power, is that right? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. You did not resist the police?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; we did not. We were quite relieved, as a matter of fact, to get them out of our hands.

Senator MUNDT. Now, was there a request made by the police that the guns be turned over to them sometime in August?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I do not remember a direct request. All I remember is the discussion about under what circumstances we might turn over the guns to them. It was made clear by the way in that meeting that there was no possibility on our part of turning them back to the Blackstone Rangers. Once we had them, we were stuck with them. We were not about to turn them back to the Blackstone Rangers. Even the Blackstone Rangers were very clear about that.

Senator CURTIS. Did you ever see any shooting dice in the classrooms in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator CURTIS. Gambling with cards?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator CURTIS. Of the Blackstone Rangers do you know any of them that used dope or drugs of any kind?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge.

Senator CURTIS. Marihuana?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge.

Senator CURTIS. Do any of them every carry it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge.

Senator CURTIS. Do any of them ever sell it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge.

Senator CURTIS. Had any of them ever been charged with selling it? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge. The fact is that Jeff Fort particularly in that organization, regardless of that marihuana charge that he was on

Senator CURTIS. He was charged with a marihuana charge?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. He was charged, but it was dropped.

Regardless of the charge he was on, neither does he smoke marihuana nor does he drink or smoke. Even in terms of excessive drinking there are pressures from that leadership that they should not do it. It is an entirely different organization from, for example, a group of college students who might use that form of

Senator CURTIS. Mrs. Martin testified that she remained outside the church and the girls, some of them referred to as Rangerettes, would come out smoking reefers.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir. I heard her testimony.

Senator CURTIS. Is that true?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator CURTIS. It never happened?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Well, I don't know for a fact that it has never happened. I doubt it very, very much.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know whether what she said is true or not? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Do I know for a fact it is true or not? No, I do not. Senator CURTIS. How many Blackstone Rangers have been convicted since you have been working with them, including those that have an appeal pending?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I have the statistics before me before, but nothing close to the number of arrests that have been made.

Senator CURTIS. About how many?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I believe that it is about one-tenth of the number of arrests, which is low as a national average, by the way.

Senator CURTIS. You furnished bail in 200 cases or so?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Have any of these Blackstone Rangers been involved in any killings during the time you have been working with them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. There are Rangers who have been involved in killings, who have been convicted of killings. I know this just by court records, and you know

Senator CURTIS. Of course, you work with them full time.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, there have been Rangers involved in killings. The CHAIRMAN. Let us go back to Philadelphia. Who invited you to Philadelphia?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Leon Sullivan.

The CHAIRMAN. Whom is he in charge of?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am not sure of the name of the agency, but he is in charge of job training, job development programs.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you in all the meetings there with the others than accompanied you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes. It was with the Rangers at least. We were there a very short period of time.

The CHAIRMAN. How long a period?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. We were there I think we got there late in the afternoon. We stayed overnight. I remember that the Rangers werethis was the first plane trip of a couple of Rangers, and they were concerned about flying at night, so we left early the next afternoon. The CHAIRMAN. The next morning?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. The next afternoon?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many meetings did you have while you were there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. We had two meetings. We had a meeting with Mr. Bernstein and Mr. Phinney.

The CHAIRMAN. Was Mr. Bernstein there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Mr. Bernstein was there; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who else?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Mr. Phinney.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is Mr. Phinney?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. He is the executive director of TWO.

The CHAIRMAN. Deputy director of the TWO?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The executive.

The CHAIRMAN. The executive director?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Were any other groups like the Rangers meeting there at the time? I think some of the Deacons were with you, didn't they?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not with the Rangers, not that I know of.