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The CHAIRMAN. The Disciples, I am sorry. The Deacons and Disciples get me confused. Mr. LaPaglia. The Disciples were all part of these meetings.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of you went on the plane to this meeting?

Mr. LaPaglia. Two Disciples.
The CHAIRMAN. Two Disciples?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. How many Rangers ?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Three, I believe.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you a Ranger?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.
The CHAIRMAN. The three Rangers and two Disciples and you?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Was any other organization represented in these meetings? Any other gang or organization or social uplift organization or anything else?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. The only two series of meetings that we had was the one with Bernstein and the one with Phinney, which was a very long meeting explaining the details of the proposed proposal.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that before you got this project through?
Mr. LaPaglia. Yes, that was before the project.

The CHAIRMAN. How many times had Bernstein already been out to Chicago during which you talked to him there!

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I only know of a couple of times that I talked to him.

The CHAIRMAN. A couple of times before?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Why would you have to travel all the way from
Chicago to Philadelphia to have another meeting with Bernstein after
you had had two meetings in Chicago ?

Mr. LaPaglia. There were two or three reasons. One was the invitation from Leon Sullivan in order to give the—the job training program was an entirely new idea for the Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of program?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Job training was an entirely new concept for the Rangers. I was anxious, and so was everybody else, to introduce them to a successful

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of job training program did they explain to you?

Mr. LÁPaglia. I didn't go with them on the project trip.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you went up there and you did not sit in on the meetings?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I sat in on the meetings.
The CHAIRMAN. What kind of program did they explain to you?

Mr. LaPaglia. They were explaining a program in which guys were given skills,

The CHAIRMAN. Guys were given skills?
Mr. LaPaglia. Unemployed people were being given skills.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of program was it? How did they set it up! You went up to find out. Tell us what they showed you.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't remember the details of the program.
The CHAIRMAN. The trip did you no good, did it?

Mr. LaPaglia. It did not do me very much good at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you made the trip to Philadelphia, but didn't go to the conference? You did not sit in on the conference, did you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA, I sat in on the two conferences on the first night. The CHAIRMAN. The two conferences the first night!

Mr. LaPaglia. The first night. I then accompanied the Rangers to Leon Sullivan's office.

The CHAIRMAN. That night?
Mr. LaPaglia. The following morning.
The CHAIRMAN. What did you do there at the office?

Mr. LaPaglia. I sat there while the Rangers were conducted on a tour of the various

The CHAIRMAN. Why didn't you go with them? If you were interested in them, finding out how to give them projects, why didn't you go with them on that tour? Why didn't you go?

Mr. LaPaglia. Frankly, I was not interested in the program.
The CHAIRMAN. You weren't interested !
Mr. LaPaglia. In that program, no, in that specific program.
The CHAIRMAN. Who paid the expenses of your trip?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Leon Sullivan.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have a meeting there with some folks called "RAM”?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see any of the RAM organization while you were there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. The CHAIRMAN. Did you sit in on a conversation or meeting in which there was discussed-did they have some meetings that you were not permitted to attend while you were there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The only possibility of that, the only time they could have possibly done that was on a trip around the centers with Leon Sullivan. I doubt very much that it involved any meeting

The CHAIRMAN. I can't understand your going up there for that purpose, working for the church, supervising, trying to help them, looking after them—they go out there and they go to a demonstration of the kind of project they have, and you did not go along

Mr. LAPaglia. Jy interest was the relationship between the TWO, Bernstein, and the Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you had been helping set up a program for them, trying to find something for them to do, something constructive. You went all the way up there to do that, and when you got there, when they went to show you what they were doing, you

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Part of my job-
The CHAIRMAN. Did you go?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Did I go where?

The CHAIRMAN. When they went out to show you exactly what they were doing. You said they took the Rangers out and the others.

Mr. LaPaglia, I did not feel that my services were needed in showing them

The CHAIRMAN. You did not feel as if you needed to know how it worked

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didn't go.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Yet you get paid $11,000 a year to try to find something to do for the Rangers constructively. You made all this trip up there, and when you got to the point where they were going to demonstrate to you, you did not feel you needed to know. Is that about right? Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. The CHAIRMAN. What? Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. The CHAIRMAN. What is right?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I wanted to explain that what I saw as my function out there was to help the Rangers understand some of the kinds of program plans that Bernstein and Leon Phinney were explaining so that we could have some discussions about exactly what they were talking about.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would this man be paying your expenses up there? Who is the man who paid your expenses?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Leon Sullivan.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would he be paying your expenses up there to have Bernstein and Phinney explain plans to you, plans that they were using, I assume, projects like they had, is that correct?

Mr. LaPaglia. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And then they want to take you out to show you the project and how it is working, and you lose interest in it all at once?

Mr. LaPaglia. I take it I was being paid as an adviser. The CHAIRMAN. You were paid for advice, yet you would not know what the plan looked like when they went to see it. How could you advise after they had seen it and you hadn't?

Mr. LaPaglia. My function was to advise them in reference to the proposal that was being submitted by Bernstein and Leon Phinney.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you not advise them better if you went out and saw some examples of the project?

Mr. LaPaglia. I think the only reason that the examples of the project were being shown to them was in order to give them some sense of what goes on with job training programs.

The CHAIRMAN. It would not be helpful to you to know that? In your position you did not need to know? That would not help you make bail bonds for them, would it? It would not help you get legal counsel for them, would it?

Mr. LaPaglia. No, it would not.
The CHAIRMAN. So you did not need that further explanation ?

Let us go back to your trip down to Circle Pines at Delton, Mich. After you got there, what did you do?

Mr. LaPaglia. We had a series of meetings.
The CHAIRMAN. You had a series of meetings?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. At different points, but a good amount of time was spent in recreation.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of recreation ?

Mr. LAPAGLIA, Canoeing down at the lake. A lot of the stand around and talk. A few of the guys went to town. They were all over.

The CHAIRMAN. Rambling around planning excursions ?

guys would Mr. LAPAGLIA. There were two things. One was planning, and the other was rambling around, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They all stayed in one cabin, as I recall. Is that right? Mr. LA PAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Several of the fellows went to town. What town was near there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am sorry. It was not a town. It was to a resort area.

Senator Mundt. Maybe it was a little town, a little habitation, gas station, resort area.

Mr. LaPaglia. That is right.

Senator Mundt. Would it have been possible, and listen to the question carefully, they went to town and you did not go with them? Would it have been possible that some of the guys that went to town or wherever they went could have bought some guns without your knowing about it?

Mr. LA PAGLIA. Certainly, especially at that time of our relationship with them.

Senator MUNDT. You say certainly it would have been possible? Mr. LAPAGLIA. It would have been possible, yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. I am just establishing that because I think you said you did not know of any guns being bought, but it could have happened and you did not know about it since you were not out in the country by yourself all the time. They were understandably moving around. Some were canoeing. Some were going to town, and some were roaming around the countryside.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you the only adviser from the church to the group?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You are church adviser, and you are not a member of it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Of the Blackstone Rangers? The church adviser and not a member of the church?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And not a member of the Blackstone Rangers, either?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Nor of the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not a member of either? Were you the only white man in the group?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In whose vehicles did you drive around after you got down there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Did I drive around?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, or any of them. What kind of vehicles did you have down there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I was driving a Volkswagen bus.

The CHAIRMAN. You did drive around some. Did you drive around in it, too, or ride in it when it was being driven around?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The only thing I recall is that I may have gone for food. There was a point where one of the cars had a flat tire.

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The CHAIRMAN. Did you go to a garage when you had that or a filling station?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes; and I was at the filling station also before we left. We all left from the filling station because we all gassed up our

The CHAIRMAN. Did you go somewhere to purchase food after you got there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How many of you were there in that one cabin?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Fourteen or 15, including myself.

The CHAIRMAN. Fifteen in one cabin. You did drive around to get some food?

Mr. LaPaglia. Yes. I must say, by the way, that it is not really a cabin. It is closer to a house. It is a two-story structure.

The CHAIRMAN. One building ?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us where you went to get the food?
Do you know the place?

Mr. LaPaglia. I have been up there a number of times with my family.

The CHAIRMAN. You know the place pretty well? You have been there a number of times ?

Mr. LA PAGLIA. You turn right at the gas station—
The CHAIRMAN. What?
Mr. LaPaglia. You turn right at the gas station, and there is a
place in which there is a resort area.

The CHAIRMAN. You turn right at the gas station?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So you were around the gas station while you were there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. At least a couple of times; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. With the Volkswagen?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. With the Volkswagen.

The CHAIRMAN. You did stop there at the station prior to getting any food, didn't you—before you got the food, after you drove up?

Mr. LÁPAGLIA. I have no recollection of the sequence. You mean had I been there at the gas station before I bought the food? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. You drove by there to get it, you said.

. Mr. LAPAGLIA. We had to drive by there to get into the camp, as a matter of fact.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you stop there before you got the food, at the gas station?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I just don't recall.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you stop on your way back after you got the food, at the gas station?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall that either.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you say you did or didn't?
Mr. LaPaglia. I say I don't recall.
The CHAIRMAN. It could be that you did ?
Mr. LaPaglia. It certainly could.

The CHAIRMAN. If I were to say you did stop there, then you would not deny it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I wouldn't know.

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