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Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am not sure what happened to him.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what became of him?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. What about Sundance?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is Koon?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is Leon Whiet?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. I really don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. You have Larnce White up there.
Mr. LAPAGLIA. There are two Whites here.
The CHAIRMAN. Who is Richard Diamond?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. I really don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is Mr. Blackstone?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Probably Eugene Hairston.
The CHAIRMAN. Who is Lefty?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Probably Melvin Bailey.
The CHAIRMAN. And Angel. Who is he?"
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Jeff Fort.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I guess we have pretty good identification.
Is there anything further?

Present him the book and let him identify his own signature, if you will.

Mr. FIALKEWICZz. This is the registration book.

The CHAIRMAN. Present it to this witness.

You are observing the original book which has been received and which I now make exhibit No. 199.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 199" for reference may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are being shown a signature by your attorney that purports to be yours. Is it your signature?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes; it is.

The CHAIRMAN. You were there at that time and signed the book? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. These others were with you, whatever their names are, whoever they are?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Some of them you identify and some you don't remember?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have anything further?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. In conferring with Mr. Knox, the executive director of the Circle Pine Camp, he could not substantiate that by the records, but he recalls this group possibly still owes the camp for at least 2 days of encampment. He says it is on the books somewhere; he could not find it; they were just changing office. That is the report he gave me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you owe him anything?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall.

The CHAIRMAN. It won't make any difference.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The church was responsible and my next-door neighbor is one of the executives of that institution. Certainly it would make a difference.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is his problem anyway, I guess.

How about this whisky you bought, big steaks and so forth? Did that happen?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They did not buy any whisky, and so far as I

know

The CHAIRMAN. You were there with them when they shopped? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I was with Jeff Fort on one occasion when I did the shopping.

The CHAIRMAN. You said you didn't see any whisky around. What did they do with all this whisky they bought? You didn't see it? What happened to it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Maybe they drank it in the woods. I have no idea. The CHAIRMAN. They may have gone off to the woods to drink it? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the occasion to go off in the woods and drink it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. To hide it from me.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not tolerate it; is that what you are saying?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. They would not trust me.

The CHAIRMAN. They would not trust you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. In that respect.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you stating that as truth under oath or are you just kidding?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Part of the record, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How much did this trip cost the church? You said they paid for all of it. How much did it cost the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I really don't recall. The billing came directly to the church.

The CHAIRMAN. About how much? How many days were you there? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I believe we were there 2 days; at least 2 nights. It should show on the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Who paid for the expense of this food, the church? Mr. LAPAGLIA. The expenses of the food I bought?

The CHAIRMAN. It was a church trip. The church paid for it. Did it or didn't it? Was it charged to the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. It was charged to the church and the bills for the food I bought came out of the teen education fund.

The CHAIRMAN. This was quite an educational trip, was it?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. In many respects; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you learn? What did you teach?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. We talked about the furtherance of the organiza

tion, positive activities they might become involved in.

Mr. BRACKETT. Could we have a 2-minute recess, Senator?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; 2 or 3 minutes' recess.

(A brief recess was taken.)

The CHAIRMAN. You saw this filling station, did you?

TESTIMONY OF WALTER FIALKEWICZ-Resumed

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. You saw the filling station?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. Yes; I did.

The CHAIRMAN. What size place is it?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. The interior of the station, it is a one-building station, no outer buildings at all. The interior of the station is no more than 15 by 15. In discussing this with Mr. Coryell as to how the sales had happened, he said there was bickering over the price and there were no set-just give me the gun, period; they bickered about the prices and he was talked down a few dollars in the price and finally he made the sale. This was on all guns. They had first bickered about the price and finally they made the sale.

The CHAIRMAN. How many guns did they buy?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. Three guns.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you pay for the guns out of the church money?

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES LaPAGLIA; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL WILLIAM W. BRACKETT-Resumed

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Did I?

The CHAIRMAN. Any of you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The only church money that was held was the money held by me.

The CHAIRMAN. By you?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. The only time I used it was for the food and, as I remember, the bill for being at the camp was sent to the church. The CHAIRMAN. How much did it cost you to stay at the camp? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall. It was a very reasonable camp. That is why we used it.

The CHAIRMAN. A very reasonable camp?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What were the rates, do you remember, per person? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I just don't remember.

The CHAIRMAN. George Rose, you have heard this testimony, have you?

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE ROSE-Resumed

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The CHAIRMAN. Was your name signed on that book? Have you seen the book?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where the other signatures are; so you were there? Mr. ROSE. I was.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard this witness testify and you have heard these affidavits with respect to your buying guns at this filling

station.

Did you buy guns on this trip?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This man sitting next to you, Mr. LaPaglia, was he present?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; he was.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he know about it?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; he did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he hear the conversations?
Mr. Rose. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he know you got the guns there at the filling station?

Mr. ROSE. He did.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it true that you went on down to the store and bought the best steaks and meats and so forth and whisky?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it is.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you do with the whisky and the steaks! Mr. ROSE. We ate the steaks and drank the whisky.

The CHAIRMAN. Pretty logical.

When did you do that?

Mr. ROSE. In the cabin.

The CHAIRMAN. He said he didn't see any whisky. How about that! Mr. ROSE. Well, he was in the room when we were drinking.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he have his eyes open?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I imagine he saw it.

What did you do with respect to the guns after you bought them? Mr. ROSE. We went back and we fired them. It was getting along evening time when we bought them. We went back and fired them at garbage cans and things like that at first.

The CHAIRMAN. You made target practice with them?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To see how well they shot?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he participate in that?

Mr. ROSE. Not in the target practice; no.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he know it was going on?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he possibly be innocent, truthful, not knowing anything about the buying of the guns or the buying and drinking of the whisky?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who got the alleged guns after you came back to Illinois? This is a question requested by counsel.

Mr. ROSE. We took them to the church.

The CHAIRMAN. Whose car were they brought back in?

Mr. ROSE. LaPaglia's Volkswagen?

The CHAIRMAN. In his Volkswagen?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you help bring the guns back?

Which car did you ride in?

Mr. Rose. I rode in the Volkswagen.

The CHAIRMAN. There and back?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You know they were brought back in the Volkswagen?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You know they were carried in the church?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they stored with the other guns there?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How were the guns carried?

Mr. ROSE. They were wrapped in a plaid or checked blanket.
The CHAIRMAN. Where did that blanket come from?

Mr. Rose. Out of the Volkswagen. It was either on the seat or under the seat; I can't remember which.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you go off without paying your bill or forgetting to pay your bill down there at this cabin?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember. I didn't have anything to do with the paying of the bills.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know the church was paying the expenses of the trip?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of planning was done? This was a planning trip?

Mr. ROSE. Well, it wasn't actually a planning trip. It was more or less like a small vacation for the leaders.

The CHAIRMAN. For the leaders?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Vacation for the leaders at church expense?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what it cost?

Mr. Rose. No, sir; I don't.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman, yes.

One of the problems confronting this committee, it seems to me, is to try to establish the credibility of the witnesses where we have such direct conflict of testimony.

I would like to read the original testimony of Mr. Rose when he testified before us on June 21. I quote from page 3808:

The CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us about any trip when you went out and bought guns? Tell us how you acquired the guns.

Mr. ROSE. Well, different ways. We got a lot of guns from junkies. They are always coming up with guns. Some came out of burglaries that individuals would commit on their own.

We went out of town a couple of times and bought guns. Or we could send other people out to the suburbs to buy them. We went to Circle Pine, Michigan, once, and bought guns.

The CHAIRMAN. You did what?

Mr. ROSE. Went to Circle Pine, Michigan.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. ROSE. It is a little town in Michigan.

The CHAIRMAN. You went out to this town on one trip?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Who went with you on that trip?

Mr. ROSE. Eugene Hairston, Jeff Fort, Lamar Bell, Woody Brown, Chuck LaPaglia.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the fellow who was in the church, the boy counsellor? Mr. ROSE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. He went with you on that trip?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many guns did you buy?

Mr. Rose. Only five at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind were they?

Mr. ROSE. Rifles and shotguns. Two sniper rifles with scopes on them.

The CHAIRMAN. Two sniper rifles with telescopes on them?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir, sights.

The CHAIRMAN. Magnum rifles?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And three shotguns?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you get them back to own?

Mr. Rose. In Chuck LaPaglia's Volkswagen truck.

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