Now, I think we must consider pretty carefully the fact that this testimony has been confirmed not by the testimony of Mr. LaPaglia but by the affidavits of the people in the filling station.

On that point, it would seem that Mr. Rose has had his testimony confirmed.

Later on he told, in the hearings, about his trip to Philadelphia. Here again it is verified.

Senator CURTIS. I would like to ask the witness who is our investigator, when did you go to Pine Circle Camp? Before or after Mr. Rose testified?

TESTIMONY OF WALTER FIALKEWICZ-Resumed

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. After Mr. Rose testified.

Senator CURTIS. In other words, he testified and you went up there in pursuit of what facts you could find at this late date?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. I did.

Senator CURTIS. His testimony was not based upon what you found but the reverse is true?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. That is true.

Senator MUNDT. I simply wanted this to be in the record because I think everybody in this room, everybody in Chicago and in the country now is trying to find out where the truth lies in this tangled web of testimony.

On these two points where we have had a chance to check on the credibility of Mr. Rose, the evidence is in support of his validity, coming from quite different sources than the witnesses involved, from an independent investigation of our own staff and from affidavits of people not remotely connected with any aspect of the case.

Now, one swallow does not make a summer. I don't think two swallows make a summer. These are two instances. I think if we can continue to pursue the check on these statements, we are going to get pretty close to finding out who is telling the truth in this testimony. On these two at least the testimony originally given by Mr. Rose has been verified by the sworn testimony and the affidavits of others. I simply wanted to point that matter out.

It is entirely conceivable that Mr. LaPaglia might have been not able to see any of these things that went on. That is conceivable; yet it does not seem very plausible to me.

In all events, there is no question now about the guns being purchased on the trip just exactly as they were described in the first testimony of Mr. Rose.

I would like to ask you, Mr. LaPaglia, because Reverend Fry said that in the main you were responsible for deciding whether or not the church funds were used to provide bonds

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES LaPAGLIA; ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL WILLIAM W. BRACKETT-Resumed

Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is right.

Senator MUNDT. He said there were 200 more or less such payments for bonds; right?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Right.

Senator MUNDT. I asked him this question. He said I should ask it of you.

What was the most serious crime for which you ever authorized the payment of bond?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I can only remember two serious crimes, offhand. They seem somewhat equal to me. Both of them were discussed. Both of them I was convinced were untrue at the time. One was an attempted murder involving Jeff Fort. The second was the possession of narcotics which was talked about before.

Senator MUNDT. Also involving Jeff Fort?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. Also involving Jeff Fort.

Senator MUNDT. I also asked him about how carefully you screened these requests for bonds. He mentioned one case that he had turned down because the church was out of funds and could not provide it. Can you recall any instance when you turned down requests for bonds?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I recall numerous instances especially in the sort of charity cases in which we did not have the bond money available and it had to be gotten somewhere else.

Senator MUNDT. Do you recall any case that you can cite to the committee where you turned down a bond because of the nature of the offense or because of some feeling that you had of presumptive guilt or because you thought this would be an inappropriate use of the funds of a Presbyterian church in providing bond for that kind of offense or arrest or alleged offense other than because of a shortage of funds?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I remember one case which was discussed before me in which the Ranger leadership never asked for bond money.

Senator MUNDT. It would be very easy to turn them down if they didn't ask you.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. It was discussed before me. We did not volunteer the money.

Senator MUNDT. If you had rejected the request for bond. I think what you are telling us about is a case discussed before you in which the Rangers did not request it and you did not volunteer it.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes. I should make clear that the most often we made bond in 1966, this is when the majority of disorderly conduct cases were occurring, where the Rangers had very little funds of their own and at that point there were a number of cases which the Rangers asked us to make bond on.

In my estimation, the majority of those cases were cases in which they were clearly instances of harassment. There was one case at the time; I am trying to recall the circumstances; where the Rangers did not ask for bond. I think they were very careful about what they asked bond for.

Senator MUNDT. Am I safe in saying that your answer to the question is "No," when I asked you if there were ever any cases where you were requested to make bond when you turned them down for reasons other than the fact that you were short of funds?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not that I recollect.

Senator MUNDT. Were you present in the church when Mrs. Martin delivered some bullets?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I was not.

Senator MUNDT. Did you hear that testimony?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes; about buying the

Senator MUNDT. I don't have to relate it.

85-779-68-pt. 11- -7

Mr. LAPAGLIA. About buying the $90 worth of bullets?
Senator MUNDT. You were not there?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I was not there.

Senator MUNDT. You did not see the bullets?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. In fact, I have not seen Mrs. Martin except, as much as I can recall-well, as a matter of fact, during the trial I asked if somebody would identify Mrs. Martin to me. I did not know Mrs. Martin intimately.

Senator MUNDT. You did not know Mrs. Martin before the trial? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Well, if somebody were to ask me who was Mrs. Martin, I would not know who she was. I could not point her out. Senator MUNDT. She would be pretty easy to remember after having seen her.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Is it your testimony you have never seen her in church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; it is not my testimony. I have never seen her in church.

Senator MUNDT. Have you seen her in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall seeing her in the church.

Senator MUNDT. You just agreed with me that if you once saw her you would remember.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Again, there are a large number of people who come through that church.

Senator MUNDT. How many have you had come through the church that look pretty much like Mrs. Martin?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not many.

Senator MUNDT. You and I know that if you once had seen her, and had her identified, and you saw the lady in the church you would remember her. That is all I am asking. Did you ever see her in the

church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't recall ever seeing her in the church.

Senator MUNDT. Would you be willing under oath to categorically deny that you had ever seen her in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator MUNDT. You would just have to say you don't remember? Mr. LAPAGLIA. I just don't remember.

Senator MUNDT. Against that kind of answer, there is not any kind of question that I can lodge.

The CHAIRMAN. You specifically and categorically deny any knowledge that marihuana was kept in the First Presbyterian Church? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You specifically deny that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you deny that the Blackstone Rangers, members of the Blackstone Rangers, smoked marihuana in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not to my knowledge have they ever smoked marihuana in the church.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they smoke any out of the church that you observed?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you smoke marihuana with them?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever smoke marihuana?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you have marihuana with you when you made this trip when you bought these guns at Circle Pine?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you smoke marihuana on that trip?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

Senator MUNDT. Would you recognize the smell of marihuana if you smelled it in the air?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am not really sure. I believe I would. I have worked around youth. There have been things pointed out to me as being the smell of marihuana.

Senator MUNDT. I would have to answer "No" to that if you asked me. I don't know what it smells like. It seems to me you would have to smell it some place to know if you smelled it some other time. Mr. LAPAGLIA. I don't believe I would.

Senator MUNDT. In a room like this, whiffing the breeze if it were an unusual smell you would say, "Haha, marihuana"?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I would not.

Mr. BRACKETT. Mr. Chairman, in your last question you asked did he have marihuana when he went to Michigan to purchase guns. Then you went on to identify the trip and so forth.

I assume you are not doing anything untoward and you are simply trying to identify the trip. He has testified that he did not buy guns or know of it.

The CHAIRMAN. I think he understands. I am not trying to mislead the witness. We have all heard the testimony this afternoon about the guns, where they were purchased. He acknowledges he was on the trip at the time it is alleged the guns were purchased.

Mr. BRACKETT. You used the term "when you purchased the guns." I don't want the record to be confused on that point.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. He said he didn't purchase. That is what I am asking: On the trip when the guns allegedly were purchased as has been testified to.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you have already specifically denied, categorically denied, any knowledge of firearms or ammunition and other weapons in the church or in the tunnel or in the loft of the First Presbyterian Church except those here that were turned in.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Identified by this exhibit.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. This picture, exhibit 192.

Do you recognize it from where you are sitting?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I do recognize it.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are the only guns you ever saw in the church?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You never saw any ammunition there?
Mr. LAPAGLIA. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you specifically and categorically deny any knowledge of what Mrs. Martin testified to as sex acts in the church? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes; I categorically deny any knowledge of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you specifically deny any knowledge that the Blackstone Rangers engaged in extortion in the Woodlawn area? Mr. LAPAGLIA. Yes; I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you specifically and categorically deny any knowledge that the Blackstone Rangers inflicted physical beatings upon members who committed infractions of the Blackstone Ranger rules?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I have seen one or two fights. I don't recall the instances. But no beatings; no.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever see any of these Main 21 members beat up any of the members?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I have not.

The CHAIRMAN. You have never seen that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand you to say a while ago in previous testimony that you did have knowledge of their charging money for the children to cross certain territory to go to the public schools.

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. I had knowledge of the fact that the Rangers collected dues and that one of the problems in collecting dues is that some of the kids just did not have money for dues. I assume that some of the Ranger members collected their dues in that way. I have no specific knowledge of that.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would you indulge such a terrible assumption about these good uplifting members of the Rangers, that they would go out and collect their dues in that fashion? Why would you assume

this?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I am not by any means denying that individual members of the Rangers do not smoke marihuana, do not have guns, do not on occasion extort money, dues, whatever it may be.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not deny on occasion they extort money, on occasion they smoke marihuana, and on occasion they get their dues by taking it away in that fashion?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; if we are being realistic. But I would like to distinguish between what is the activities of this organization as the Blackstone Rangers and what individual members of the Blackstone Rangers do.

These are, as I said, tough, poor, probably some of the most violent kids in the whole country.

The CHAIRMAN. You admit that?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. I admit that.

The CHAIRMAN. The most violent gangs in the whole country. Mr. LAPAGLIA. Not gangs. I say some of the members are some of the most violent kids in the whole country.

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about these kids, the folks up here, 21 and 22 years old; are they the violent ones?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. Í am not specifically pointing to the leadership. The CHAIRMAN. How about this one sitting by you? Do you regard him as a pretty violent kid?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No; I am not specifically referring to Mr. Rose. What I am specifically saying

The CHAIRMAN. Are you referring to Jeff Fort?

Mr. LAPAGLIA. No. I am not making specific reference to any individuals.