Senator CURTIs. How do you spell it?

Mr. SPELLAR. Phonetically, it is S-c-h-w-a-1-b-a-c-h, I believe, Senator. I have the correct spelling somewhere in my files.

Senator CURTIS. Do you know what her occupation is?

Mr. SPELLAR. The only understanding I have is that she is either an assistant to Charles LaPaglia or she is a social worker within the confines of the church involving the First Presbyterian Church.

I was never quite clear on what her specific duties were, nor did I inquire personally of her what they were.

All I did was make a request of her to interview two members. At the time I made my request, she asked me if I were with the Gang Intelligence Unit, and when I told her I was not, she said, "Well, that is good, because I hate them fellows. You fellows are all right."

At that time, we were hopeful of interviewing McChristian and Bey, but we were unsuccessful that day.

Senator CURTIS. About when did this visit to the First Presbyterian Church occur?

Mr. SPELLAR. It would be approximately, I would say, during the latter part of February or during the month of March of this year. Senator CURTIS. Did you see any evidence of any instruction going on, any training programs?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir. On the first floor I saw very small children, the age range, I would say, of 6, 7, 8 or 9, that were involved in instruction and involved in receiving food.

When I asked one of the workers-I don't know his name, but he came out and I said, "What are the children doing?" He said, "That is part of the Headstart program."

Senator CURTIS. I mean, so far as the Rangers are concerned, did you see anything that indicated any instruction or training going on or that had been going on?

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir, I saw no indication of that.

Senator CURTIS. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. I have one or two quick questions and we will resume after lunch.

Would you call the activities of the Blackstone Rangers and the Disciples organized crime? Would it come in that category?

Mr. SPELLAR. With me it would, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. SPELLAR. Because of the fact that there are planned, not spontaneous, happenings. In addition to the spontaneous happenings, there are planned happenings.

These are happenings that are forewarned, in some cases where the police department is fortunate enough to gain the knowledge of a rumble to happen. The police do, in fact, surround the area and prevent the rumble. On some of those occasions, many weapons, inclusive of chains, clubs with razor blades inserted, weapons of that nature have been recovered.

These are not spontaneous things, Senator. These are planned things. The CHAIRMAN. You wouldn't place them in the category of the Mafia, not of that proportion, or the syndicate, but it is a local, organized gang, primarily engaged in the commission of crime, is that correct?

Mr. SPELLAR. I wouldn't term it as local, sir. There are splinter branches all over the city of Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. When I say local, I mean in the city of Chicago. It is not national in scope like the Mafia, or syndicated crime that extends to several States or cities.

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a local organized gang that is primarily engaged in crime.

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is giving the law enforcement officers considerable trouble.

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And it is a menace to society.

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It instills the state of fear into the community.
Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a state of terror, is it not?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir, it is.

The CHAIRMAN. What percentage of the shootings, the beatings and the murders in that area, the Woodlawn area, would you say, from your judgment and observation, and experience, as à professional policeman, being there on the ground, having made many investigations-what percentage of them would you say are attributable to the Blackstone Rangers or the Disciples, or both?

Mr. SPELLAR. I would say that 85 percent of those shootings were attributable to the Blackstone Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. Eighty-five percent?

Mr. SPELLAR. And I would say that those 85 percent of those shootings were directed against the Disciples. I would say 15 percent of the shootings committed against the Disciples were directed against the Rangers.

In my opinion, Senator, it is an uneven war in respect to the fact that we have more Disciples shot than we do Rangers.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is more or less of a gang war?

Mr. SPELLAR. It is a war, yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you: Knowing the leaders of these groups-I am thinking primarily of folks like Eugene Hairston, Jeff Fort, Rose, and others who have been named there on the chart, the principal leaders of the Blackstone Rangers, knowing of their activities, their conduct, and also that of Barksdale, who is the head of the Disciples, and Dorenzo, who was a vice president, I believe you said— knowing those people, their operations, their character, their reputation, their criminal records, would you say that they could manage, promote, and direct an uplift movement in that community?

Mr. SPELLAR. I do not, sir. The only thing I think they could direct would be violence in this case.

The CHAIRMAN. Violence?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is their specialty?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you think about putting them in charge, people like that in charge, of Government programs for the uplift of the community, for the education of school dropouts and so forth, for job training?

Mr. SPELLAR. I think it is very unwise, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the community benefit from it or is it a detriment to law enforcement?

Mr. SPELLAR. It is a definite detriment to law enforcement.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. SPELLAR. Because of the fact, as I testified, I believe there is organization here. Any organization of any criminal activity involving anyone, whether it be Rangers, Disciples, or any organized group, are detrimental to a police department or a law enforcement agency, due to the fact that the organization structure within itself is opposed to the police department in such a manner so as to deter the policemen from the performance of their duty and the nonobtaining of any information that is very important to that performance.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that situation enhanced or is the crime situation aggravated when the Federal Government supplies them with money, with income, for alleged teaching, for construction?

Mr. SPELLAR. I would say it aggravates the situation, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. SPELLAR. Because of the fact that the Federal Government is a very prominent organization and if an individual deals, more or less, as I say, with the top, that, in itself, would give him such more confidence in the operation he was engaged in, and also gives him a revenue in which to further any of his activities.

The CHAIRMAN. Just one more question.

Has Reverend Fry or the Reverend Brazier ever given you any assistance in law enforcement?

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In all the years since you have been serving there, they have never assisted you?

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir, not in any of the shootings I have handled, no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. SPELLAR. Not in any of the cases I personally have handled at all.

The CHAIRMAN. You get no assistance from them?

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they cooperate to any extent in helping law enforcement officials?

Mr. SPELLAR. Not to my knowledge, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, the committee will stand in recess until 2:30. We will return at that time. There may be another question or two, Mr. Spellar.

(Whereupon, at 1:55 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 2:30 p.m. the same day.)

(Members present at time of recess : Senators McClellan and Curtis.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(The subcommittee reconvened at 2:40 p.m., Senator John L. McClellan, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding.)

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

(Members present at time of reconvening: Senators McClellan and Curtis.)

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions of Mr. Spellar? Senator CURTIS. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Spellar.
Call the next witness.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Comdr. William B. Griffin.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM B. GRIFFIN-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you attended these hearings all along, Commander?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, I have, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you wish to add to the testimony you have previously given?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have an affidavit that I think might be of importance. Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you go ahead and read the affidavit?

Mr. GRIFFIN, I, William B. Griffin, commander, third police district, Chicago, Ill., freely and voluntarily make the following statement to LaVern J. Duffy who has identified himself to me as a member of the staff of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Government Operations.

No threats, force or duress have been used to induce me to make this statement, nor have I received any promise of immunity from any consequences which may result from submission of this statement to the aforementioned Senate permanent subcommittee.

Mr. Chairman, I have attended the hearing and I understand that the subcommittee is interested and concerned about the grant made by the Office of Economic Opportunity to the Woodlawn Organization to establish a demonstration program for the benefit of two street gangs identified as "The Blackstone Rangers" and "The East Side Disciples,' the core of which and the majority of the membership being located in the Grand Crossing police district of which I am the commander on Chicago's South Side.

I think that it might be of interest if the committee was made aware of the structure and the problems of such a cosmopolitan police district as involved in this presentation. The involved police district is of approximately 52 square miles in the area with a population of 179,626 persons.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to inject at this point, this is based on the 1960 Census.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it greater now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. I would say it would be closer to about 210,000. The CHAIRMAN. That is the population of this Woodlawn area? Mr. GRIFFIN. No, sir. That is the population of the entire police district. Woodlawn area is only a segment of the entire police district. The CHAIRMAN. What would be the population of the Woodlawn area as you refer to it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would say 125,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of this total population all but 20,000 persons are Negro. The balance of the population are of Jewish, Swedish, and Irish origin.

This district is cosmopolitan to the extent of not only the ethnic groups residing therein, but to the degree of housing, ranging from the high-rise public buildings to single family residences in the $60,000

to $70,000 category; the store front church as compared to the magnificent edifices of religious institutions of both Christians and Jews; the small neighborhood grocery store as compared to the fine and prosperous business communities; and to the cooperative attitudes that are manifested by both the black and white population in their untiring efforts to achieve and assure a community which we, in a democratic society, can all be proud of. Through these untiring efforts of the majority of the populace of my district, there does exist peace and tranquillity with the exception of one particular area.

I feel at this point it might be well to define the various segments of the district. Within the district we have the Park Manor, Washington Park Heights, and the Grand Crossing area with many single family homes and a very low crime rate; the model integrated South Shore area with an even lower crime rate and the East Woodlawn community, the home of "The Blackstone Rangers" and "The East Side Disciples," approximately one-fifth of the total district, yet accounting for most of the crime occurring within the district.

It is within this area bounded by 60th to 67th Street, Cottage Grove Avenue to Stony Island Avenue that is the bailiwick of the two gang structures, "The Blackstone Rangers" and "The East Side Disciples" with the boundary of the representative "turfs" being at Woodlawn Aveune.

It occurred during early 1966 that any gang member violating the "turf" of an opposing gang was subjected from anything to a fist in the eye to being murdered. The extent of these occurrences were such that I was transferred from the burglary section to the third district on June 14, 1966, in a hope that I could better relate with those involved and attempted to resolve the existing situation.

Subsequent to my assignment to the third district I feel that we had achieved a splintering of the basic gang structure into smaller groups which we were capable of controlling through positive measures and which began to reflect itself in a decrease in index crimes in my particular district while an increase in crime was prevalent in many of the other districts throughout the city.

Then came the word that the Office of Economic Opportunity was funding the Woodlawn Organization's manpower training program that we were all opposed to since its inception.

Any program designed for the development of our youthful citizens should be geared to all the youth in the involved area.

Further, it is wrong to negotiate with gang leaders for a result as was done in this case. This type of action only tends to perpetuate the gang structures, making them stronger and more difficult to break up and control which is basically a police function. If I was a youth, a school dropout, and wanted to take advantage of the opportunities allegedly offered in this program, what would my chances be?

I would take advantage of this donation of $45 per week by first identifying with one of the two gang structures and enrolling at the respective gang center with which I have identified, or No. 2, be denied this opportunity because I didn't care to be identified as a member of a street gang, which the grant concedes are "illegitimate structures." The CHAIRMAN. Do you say the grant concedes that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. How do you know that to be, that the grant concedes it?