further stated that they themselves may go to jail as they had not been granted immunity. Mrs. Martin then asked what is immunity and he explained it to her. Mrs. Martin then stated she wanted to see her boys before she gave him an answer. Mr. Seltzer stated that he needed her permission as soon as possible. Mrs. Martin still stated that she wanted to see her boys first. Mr. Seltzer stated that he would try to arrange it right away. While Mr. Seltzer was attempting to arrange for Mrs. Martin to see her boys, she and I went to a snack shop on Roosevelt. There, I called Sergeant Deas and informed him of what had taken place thus far.

We went back to the office about 20 minutes later and Mr. Seltzer had gone to the Family Court Building, leaving instructions for us to follow and meet him on the 2d floor in the Court Building. After about 30 minutes of waiting, we were approached by Mr. Patrick McNally who is in charge of the Legal Aid Office at 1114 S. Oakley. He told us that the State had pulled a fast one. I asked what did he mean. He stated that when Seltzer went to the Audy Home to arrange for us to see the boys, he learned that they were not in the Audy Home. Later in the Court Building, he learned that the State had taken them to 26th and California and he immediately followed. This was on the Eugene Hairston case.

McNally then stated that he too was going there and for us to wait there in the Family Court Building for their return. About an hour or two later, Mr. Seltzer returned and stated when he arrived at 26th and California, he saw the boys leaving the State's attorney's office with 20 policemen around them. He stated that at first, the police did not want him near the boys but after convincing them that he was their lawyer, he talked to the boys in private. He stated that the boys have been brainwashed as they had insisted on telling the truth to the grand jury.

The CHAIRMAN. They had insisted on telling the truth?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And he called that brainwashing, because they wanted to tell the truth?

Mr. CONNER. That is just what he told us.

The CHAIRMAN. That was his terminology for it.

Mr. CONNER. He stated that they were going to do it even though they knew Bull and/or Jeff would try to get even. He further stated he went to Judge Powers and got immunity for the boys so that they could not be tried in criminal court. Mr. Seltzer then asked Mrs. Martin, "Do you have any relatives down South?" She stated she had some brothers in Mississippi. He then asked "Would they keep the boys if you asked them?" She answered affirmative. He then stated, "We're not suppose to do this but if we could get your boys freed from family court today, would you be willing to send them down South today?" Mrs. Martin asked, "Why." He stated, "If they leave today, the State will not have subpenas issued ordering them not to leave the city and then Bull or Jeff can't bother them." After making that last statement, he suggested we return with him to the legal aid office. Back there, we went into Mr. McNally's office where he was dialing a number and he asked to speak to Reverend Fry or some person with a similar name. The CHAIRMAN. Did you hear him ask to speak to Reverend Fry?

Mr. CONNER. It sounded to me as if he said Reverend Fry, but I am not going to swear it.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not going to swear it, but it sounded to you that way?

Mr. CONNER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. CONNER. At any rate, he told that party what had transpired earlier which was the same story Mr. Seltzer had told us. We then stated there were two alternatives; one was maybe Mrs. Martin could be rushed over to 26th and California and she could instruct the boys not to talk, but after checking the time, it would probably be too late. The second alternative was the same as stated to us by Mr. Seltzer: to get the boys out of town. Mr. McNally asked Mrs. Martin: “Would you be willing to send the boys out of town for their protection?" She stated that she did not mind sending them but she did not have any money. He then stated, "Maybe that could be arranged as it should cost only about $30 for two half fares, one way by bus." With that, we all-and this included McNally, Seltzer, Mrs. Martin, and myself went over to family court where McNally and Seltzer made preparations to get the boys released.

About an hour later, the boys were released and Mr. McNally told Mrs. Martin to please keep in touch with him or Bill Seltzer. This was the testimony

The CHAIRMAN. They didn't get the boys out of town, did they? Mr. CONNER. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. After you went over there, did she ever agree to get the boys out of town, or did they ever give her the $30 to send them out of town, do you know?

Mr. CONNER. Not to my knowledge.

Senator CURTIS. Had the boys already testified to the grand jury? Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir; they have.

Senator CURTIS. I mean had they when she got

Mr. CONNER. Had they testified? I don't know.

Senator CURTIS. You don't know what the time element was?

Mr. CONNER. No.

Senator CURTIS. Whether or not this was a warning or a threat, the fact remains that you did hear the information conveyed to Mrs. Martin that if the boys testified, that Hairston and Fort might get them, or words to that effect?

Mr. CONNER. Or words to that effect.

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

How did it happen that you left to go to the snack shop while this first conference was going on?

Mr. CONNER. We went to

Senator CURTIS. Do you remember why?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, I do.

Senator CURTIS. Why?

Mr. CONNER. Mrs. Martin had insisted on seeing her two boys before she gave him any permission to get them released from the Audy Home, and when Mr. Seltzer went to the Audy Home, we went to have coffee, while he was over in the Audy Home getting her permission to see the two boys.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point, let the report of Detective Conner be filed as exhibit No. 203, so we have a copy of the original report. (The report was marked "Exhibit No. 203" for reference and may be found in the files of the Subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. I don't think the record showed this: Were you to pose as her husband? It does say that, I believe, doesn't it? Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you do that?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he under the impression that you were her husband while you were talking to her?

Mr. CONNER. I think I convinced him of the fact. When she told me her husband was a little deranged, he was a little slow, he was retarded, and that he had been in an institution, and he was very nervous, so I just made like I was nervous, and I think I convinced her.

The CHAIRMAN. You made out as if you were out of an institution, did you? Was that part of the arrangement, to try to convince him that you were her husband?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You carried it out?

Mr. CONNER. I think I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You think you were successful?

Senator MUNDT. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Senator MUNDT. You are Mr. Conner?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Conner, did you at any time discuss your testimony here with Mrs. Martin as to what she was going to testify to here?

Mr. CONNER. Before Here, sir?

Senator MUNDT. Yes.

Mr. CONNER. No, sir.

Senator MUNDT. There is a very close similarity, certainly, between what Mrs. Martin told us and what you have told us. She said there was a fellow by the name of Steve, whose name she couldn't remember, and it developed later it was Steve Conner, who posed as her husband, acted nervous, played with matches and buttons on his coat in trying to convince the authorities that he was her slightly deranged husband. She testified as to people who were there at the time. She couldn't remember Mr. McNally, but she could remember Seltzer and the other fellow.

So I wanted to find out if you had talked to her about what she was going to tell us, and if she had talked to you about what she was going to tell us. She obviously would not have had access to the report you are reading. It is an interoffice report, is it not?

Mr. CONNER. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. It goes to your superior?

Mr. CONNER. That is right.

Senator MUNDT. So it is hard to see how she could possess clairvoyance to know what was in the report, but the incidents as you have

related them in your report match very closely the procedures and the incidents as they are involved in her statement.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Just one thing. You have been away on a vacation?
Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir; they just caught up with me Saturday.
The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. CONNER. They just caught up with me Saturday.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you weren't in range of this hearing until they found you Saturday?

Mr. CONNER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you had had no conference with her at all?
Mr. CONNER. No, sir; I hadn't seen her.

The CHAIRMAN. How long had it been since you had seen her?
Mr. CONNER. It has to be at least 5 or 6 months.

The CHAIRMAN. Five or six months since you even saw her?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you had no conversation as to what you would testify or what she could testify?

Mr. CONNER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Senator.

Senator CURTIS. The question I was going to ask is: When did a representative of the committee first get in touch with you? That was last Saturday?

Mr. CONNER. A representative-my office-they were trying to reach me, I think, since Thursday, from what I hear, but I was touring, you see, and I was going from place to place, and finally a telephone call caught up with me in Cincinnati. My wife caught me there and told me the police department was looking for me, and we came on home. Senator CURTIs. You came back to Chicago?

Mr. CONNER. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. Who talked to you concerning the fact that your testimony might be wanted here? Do you know?

Mr. CONNER. When I first came back, I tried to contact-they told me to contact Lieutenant Dyer, and I missed him, and I asked one of the guys there if he left a message for me, and he said, "No," so in the meantime one of the gang intelligence fellows, Detective Robinson, called my mother and when I got back to my mother's, she told me I should contact either him or somebody from gang intelligence, and they would tell me what it was all about.

I contacted Sergeant Gibbons, and he told me my testimony may be needed here and they had a ticket for me at my unit, and that was the

Senator CURTIS. At this point, you-When you found out what it was about you realized it was a matter that you had made a written record of at the time?

Mr. CONNER. Yes, sir. But I still wasn't sure as to what it was. I didn't know, either.

Senator CURTIS. Where did you go to get this written report that you have read today?

Mr. CONNER. This report here?

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Mr. CONNER. This is a copy of one of the reports I submitted when

I was at the unit.

Senator CURTIS. It was in what office?

Mr. CONNER. It was supplied to me by Sergeant Deas.

Senator CURTIS. It would have been filed, or was filed with whom? Mr. CONNER. Gang intelligence.

Senator CURTIS. And you read your report, you refreshed your mind as to what happened?

Mr. CONNER. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. In other words, your testimony here today is in the main a recitation of the facts which you recorded at the time the events occurred?

Mr. CONNER. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Sergeant Deas, do you have a statement?

What do you have, a copy of the report you made?

Mr. DEAS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may read it. What is your background? What was your connection with the case?

Mr. DEAS. This was a formal report written as a result of a visit to the Audy home where the two sons of Mrs. Martin were being confined, and the visit was with two other detectives of my unit at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. You were with two other detectives?

Mr. DEAS. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make the report of the visit?

Mr. DEAS. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I see that was on September 28. That was the next day, apparently, after the report of Detective Conner.

Mr. DEAS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed to read your report. Mr. DEAS. On the 28th day of September 1967, the writer of this report, in company with Detectives James Grant and Roy Robinson of the gang intelligence unit, accompanied Mrs. Annabelle Martin and her two sons, namely, Sanders Martin and Marvin Martin to the court room of Hon. Judge J. Thornton.

Prior to this visit, this same date, assistant State's attorney Karton had been contacted and proper procedure formulated to have the two Martin lads returned to the Audy Home under protective custody. The visit to the court of Judge Thornton was the first step in this procedure.

Upon arrival at the home, assistant State's attorney, William Meade, who had been informed of our coming to the home, was contacted. Immediate arrangements were made to have all concerned appear in the court before the Judge to hear the petition of the State for the return of the two juveniles.

Before we could make an appearance in the court, there was a wait period because of other cases being heard. During this interim, Mrs. Martin and her two sons were approached by two male Caucasians, one of them she knew to be attorney Patrick McNally.

Attorney McNally approached the mother and her two sons and made an attempt to take them into some type of seclusion and converse with them. At this time, the writer of this report gave the attorney the opportunity to talk with the lads. He made several additional at