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tempts, but to no avail. The attorney then asked Mrs. Martin to speak with him; she then agreed to do this.

During the conversation with Mrs. Martin and the attorneys it was learned that the other attorney was attorney William Seltzer. It was also learned that both of these men were from the legal aid department, which is located at 1114 South Oakley.

These men made every attempt to get Mrs. Martin to talk to her sons and tell them to change their statements.

The CHAIRMAN. Are these the lawyers trying to get the mother to persuade her boys to change their statements?

Mr. Deas. That is correct. Senator MUNDT. Did you overhear them talking to the mother yourself?

Mr. DEAS. No; I didn't, sir.

Senator Mundt. Where did you find out that they made every attempt?

Mr. DEAs. When I get down further in the report, sir; I think I will bring it out.

They stated to Mrs. Martin, “Without their testimony, I can save 'Bull', but if they testify”.

Senator CURTIB. Save who?

Mr. Deas. Bull. The nickname of one of the gentlemen you have there.

Senator CURTIS. Who said this?

Mr. Deas. This was one of the attorneys. Mrs. Martin identified him but it transpired in the conversation she had with both of them.

“Without their testimony, I can save ‘Bull', but if they testify, there is not much hope for him.” Seltzer also told her that "We will give you anything you want.” Mrs. Martin began to walk back to where the writer of this report and her sons were standing. At this point, she informed him that she didn't want him as an attorney at which time, he (Attorney McNally), stated that “I hope you are willing to accept the responsibility for what might happen to these kids.” This I did hear.

There was a subsequent appearance in the court of Judge Thornton, and at this time, Assistant State's Attorney Meade informed His Honor of the petition and the purpose of the petition. At this time, attorney

At this point, may I indicate a correction. Instead of "Seltzer," it should be "McNally.

The CHAIRMAN. It was McNally instead of Seltzer?
Mr. Deas. Yes, sir.

McNally interrupted and stated to the judge that he had made several attempts to talk to the mother and the juveniles and had been denied this by the three officers present. Counsel informed the judge that he was the legal representation of the juveniles. At this time, Mrs. Martin interrupted and stated, “The State's attorney is my lawyer. I don't want this man."

At these remarks, Attorney McNally remarked, "I would like all of this put into the record.” His honor replied, "It will be entered into the record."

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All involved accompanied the assistant State's attorney, who made the necessary arrangements, and held a conference with the mother informing her of the official status of her children. Mrs. Martin was further informed that arrangements were being made to transfer them from the home on Monday morning to the witness quarters at 26th and California Avenue.

At or about 1700 hours-or 5 p.m.--the writers departed from the Audy home to return Mrs. Martin to her residence. Approximately 10 minutes prior to our departure, Attorney Seltzer had called the intake department of the juvenile home, requesting of the attendant that he, Seltzer, be informed when the youths arrived.

The attendant was apprised of the status of the juveniles by Assistant State's Attorney Meade, and was directed that no person is permitted to converse with the juveniles unless he or Assistant State's Attorney Karton approves.

Any further developments in the case, which relates to the activity of the two counsels, will become the subject of a report.

The CHAIRMAN. You have in this report that the attorney stated, "without the testimony of the boys I can save Bull"-meaning Hairston—"but if they testify, there is not much hope for them.”

Now, you didn't hear that?
Mr. DEAS. No.
The CHAIRMAN. Who reported that to you?
Mr. DEAs. Mrs. Martin. She indicated that
Senator CURTIS. When did you write it down?
Mr. Deas. I beg your pardon!
Senator CURTIS. When did you write it down?
Mr. DEAS. After I went to the station. It wasn't necessary for me
to remember that.

Senator CURTIS. The same day?
Mr. Deas. The same day.

The CHAIRMAN. Seltzer also told her, “We will give you anything you want?”

Mr. Deas. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Martin began to walk back to where the writer of this report and her sons were standing. At this point, she informed him that she didn't "want him as an attorney.” Did you hear that?

Mr. Deas. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard her tell him that she didn't want him as an attorney?

Mr. DEAS. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. And after hearing her tell him that, she related these facts to you, as to why she didn't want him?

Mr. Deas. Right, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. There, at the time?
Mr. Deas. There, at the time. And in his presence.

The CHAIRMAN. 'In his presence. She made these remarks, in his presence, to you?

Mr. DÉAs. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. She repeated the reason she didn't want him was because of these suggestions she had made to him?

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85–779—68—pt, 11-12

Mr. DEAS. She initially made to me the suggestion he had made. Then, subsequently, she stated in his presence that she didn't want him.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you heard her state to him she didn't want him.

Mr. Deas. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't hear her repeat or say back to him what he had said to her?

Mr. DEAS. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Thereafter, you heard her tell him she didn't want him as a lawyer?

Mr. Deas. On two occasions, there and in the courtroom.
The CHAIRMAN. Both places.
Mr. DEAs. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you hear him state this:

I hope you are willing to accept the responsibility for what might happen to these kids.

Mr. Deas. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that along the line—did you take, or did you understand that to be along the line of his suggestion that Bull, or Jeff, might get them?

Mr. DEAs. I took it as an implied threat.

The CHAIRMAN. As an implied threat, because of the attendant circumstances and what she had just told you, that she didn't want him as a lawyer?

Mr. Deas. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know they had been trying to get them to leave town?

Mr. DEAs. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. You also had that information?
Mr. DEAS. I did.

The CHAIRMAN. The only way you could interpret it under those circumstances was that it was an implied threat?

Mr. DEAs. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Are there any other questions?
Let this report be made an exhibit.

(Document was marked “Exhibit No. 204" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Senator Mundt. Did you go to Conner and suggest that he pose as the husband of Mrs. Martin?

Mr. Deas. It didn't necessitate going to him. The gentleman here to my right is a part of the unit, and I was one of the supervising sergeants.

Senator Mundt. Mrs. Martin suggested to you that she would like to have a police officer accompany her, and somebody who did not look like a policeman?

Mr. Deas. No, she didn't suggest it to me. This was a conversation she had with Detective Conner, and it was agreed and thought this was a practical thing to do under the circumstances at this time.

Senator MUNDT. In other words, she didn't want to go into the courtroom alone. She wanted a policeman

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Mr. Deas. May I correct you. It wasn't the courtroom she didn't want to go into. She didn't want to go into the office of the attorneys involved.

Senator MUNDT. That is right.
Mr. Deas. Yes, sir.

Senator Mundr. Then it was her idea to come up with a policeman that didn't look like a policeman?

Mr. Deas. That is right.

Senator MUNDT. I point out once again, on page 1490 of the testimony, that is precisely what Mrs. Martin said.

The CHAIRMAN. Any questions, Senator?
Thank you, gentlemen, very much.

The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 4:50 p.m. the committee was recessed, to be reconvened at 10a.m. Tuesday, July 2, 1968.)

(Subcommittee members present at time of recess: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.)

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