Mr. DORENZO. He is a member of the Disciples. Yes. The two bottom signatures, go down-those two signatures had to be true right there. Those checks were going to be made out to somebody that day or the next day.

The CHAIRMAN. You think these are genuine signatures?

Mr. DORENZO. I think they are.

The CHAIRMAN. Those are genuine signatures. But this man to whom it is made is

Mr. DORENZO. He is in the penitentiary right now.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he in the penitentiary then, the date of this check?

Mr. DORENZo. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would checks be made out by the Woodlawn Organization to him before?

Mr. DORENZO. I believe the check was stolen and they used a phony name, that is all.

Senator MUNDT. They signed them but they were blank.

Mr. DORENZO. They were blank but the treasurer's name was already on them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know who signed Mays' name to the check endorsing it?

Mr. DORENZO. Mays' name was already on the check when I got it. The CHAIRMAN. You don't know who signed this name to it?

Mr. DORENZO. No. But I put my name my name was not on the check. I signed my own name on it.

The CHAIRMAN. So that the check could be cashed?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. And then gave the money to

Mr. DORENZo. Robert Allen.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Joseph Evans?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He is on this chart here?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. He is at the bottom.

The CHAIRMAN. What did Joseph Evans do in your organization? Mr. DORENZO. He was a branch leader of the Disciples called the Falcons. But he was a trainee in the program.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he in this school?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. He went to the school?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. He was one of the pupils?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. A trainee. How about Aaron Evans, who is he?

Mr. DORENZO. Aaron is his brother.

The CHAIRMAN. Where is Aaron?

Mr. DORENZo. Both of them are on the street now.

The CHAIRMAN. Both what?

Mr. DORENZO. Both of the boys are on the street now.

The CHAIRMAN. I have before me a couple of checks here dated

April 12th. It seems these are original checks.

Mr. DORENZo. Those are original checks.

The CHAIRMAN. They are all on the same fund.

Mr. DORENZO. That is the OEO project.

The CHAIRMAN. One of them signed by Collins.
Mr. DORENZo. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Looks like Clarence R. Collins.

Mr. DORENZO. And Reverend Brazier at the top.

The CHAIRMAN. The other is Reverend Brazier on the check. Mr. DORENZO. That is true. That is what I meant by the other checks, those two signatures. They couldn't be cashed without the signatures. The CHAIRMAN. Where was Joseph Evans on April 12th?

Mr. DORENZO. To my knowledge, he was in jail at that time, him and his brother.

The CHAIRMAN. Both in jail?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. On what charge? Let us check this out with the police. We just got this information this morning.

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I see the endorsement here of Joseph Evans andMr. DORENZo. And James Shead.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you know whether these are their signatures or not?

Mr. DORENZO. I will look at them. I know their signatures.
The CHAIRMAN. You do?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Take a look at these. Here is one endorsed Aaron Evans and James Shead. Take a look at those signatures endorsing the backs of those checks and tell us whether those are in your judg ment their signatures.

They may or may not be, I don't know, but these checks may have

some

Mr. DORENZO. These checks right here was cashed by one of the instructors. These boys were in jail at this time. In the school after I left they had a member of the other Disciples was in jail but was not released from the program.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean they paid them money after they were in jail?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. For attending school?

Mr. DORENZO. This was not ŎEO's doing. This was the Disciples doing.

The CHAIRMAN. Were these boys to whom the checks were made payable, were they supposed to be attending school at that time?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true. But they were supposed to be sent by the center chief, letting them know that these boys were temporarily dis missed from the project, not kicked out because they were in jail.

But just temporarily until they come home again and then they put them back in the program.

The CHAIRMAN. At this time maybe this was backpay owing them; I don't know.

Mr. DORENZO. At that time I believe those boys was in jail. I am pretty sure they were. Joseph Evans and his brother had pretty high bond at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. How long did they stay in jail that you know of? Mr. DORENZO. Over 30 days.

The CHAIRMAN. This could have been backpay for them?

Mr. DORENZO. I don't think it was. I am pretty sure it wasn't. Senator CURTIS. The money came from the project but it was the Disciples that engineered cashing the checks and got the money? Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you observe the signature?

Mr. DORENZO. No, sir, not those boys' signatures.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not those boys' signatures?

Mr. DORENZO. That's right.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you know, you are not an expert?

Mr. DORENZO. What I mean by this: that bottom signature that was something like an insurance on those boys. I know the store they took them to. This is what I am trying to tell you now. Those boys, they told the man in the store that because they had to have identifications. They were in jail. They were trying to bond them out. This would be a lie to get the money to go to the club.

The CHAIRMAN. They would go to somebody and tell them they were trying to get the money to get them out?

Mr. DORENZo. I wasn't in the club at the time but I knew what was going on.

The CHAIRMAN. You knew what was going on?

Mr. DORENZo. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. James Shead's signature you say you think is genuine?

Mr. DORENZO. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Is Shead's signature genuine that you know?
Mr. DORENZO. Yes, that is his signature. I know his signature.

The CHAIRMAN. The one that is not genuine is Joseph Evans at the top?

Mr. DORENZo. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Shead's, you think is genuine?

Mr. DORENZO. It is genuine. I lived with him.

The CHAIRMAN. You lived with him, you know his signature?
Mr. DORENZo. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So he finally got the money. He was the last endorser?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes. If he got the money it didn't stay with him. It went to the top.

The CHAIRMAN. It went to the top if he got it?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know the man who signed the check for the organization, who made out the check? It looks like Charles Collins.

Mr. DORENZo. Do I know him?

Senator MUNDT. Yes.

Mr. DORENZO. No, I didn't.

Senator MUNDT. The other one looks like Brazier.

Mr. DORENZo. Arthur M. Brazier. I know Reverend Brazier.

Senator MUNDT. Is he a Reverend?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. Does he work for Woodlawn?

Mr. DORENZO. He is president of TWO, The Woodlawn Organization.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you being held now on this forgery charge of a check?

Mr. DORENZO. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Not on the last two checks but the other two checks. Mr. DORENZO. Not that I know of, no.

The CHAIRMAN. Which one of these were on the payroll of this OEO project?

Mr. DORENZO. David Barksdale. He was on the payroll.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what salary?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes. He draws center chief's salary.

Mr. DUFFY. He was paid $6,000 a year. He was hired on September 11, 1967.

Mr. DORENZO. He was in the program as a community worker, but we didn't have our center then. He was hired as a center chief. But he had a job in the program before that.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the other one? What job did you have? Mr. DORENZO. I was assistant project director.

The CHAIRMAN. What salary did you get?

Mr. DORENZO. $6,500 a year.

The CHAIRMAN. You made more than Barksdale then, didn't you? Mr. DORENZO. I was supposed to run the program because it was in my neighborhood.

The CHAIRMAN. You were supposed to run the program?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you run it?

Mr. DORENZO. Up until February until I was took into custody. The CHAIRMAN. You ran it up until that time?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. How did that salary compare to the salary you were getting with whatever job you had previously?

Mr. DORENZO. It was at least a hundred dollars more, it was over a hundred dollars more than I was getting.

Senator MUNDT. A year or a month?

Mr. DORENZO. A year or month?

Senator MUNDT. A hundred dollars more a month or a year? My question is: You were getting $6,500?

Mr. DORENZO. I was making $270 over 2 weeks. I understand what he is saying.

Senator MUNDT. My question is: How did that salary compare with the salary that you earned at your previous job?

Mr. DORENZO. My salary then was quite lower than I was getting in the program. It was more money if that is what you mean. Senator MUNDT. It was the best paying job you ever had?

Mr. DORENZO. In my life.

Senator MUNDT. In your life.

Mr. DUFFY. Senator, the record shows that Mr. Dorenzo went on the payroll July 1, 1967, went off the payroll February 15, 1968, which indicates he was on the payroll almost 2 months before Mr. Barksdale went on the payroll.

Senator MUNDT. You were on the payroll first?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You were setting it up?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes. Organizing it. That is true.
The CHAIRMAN. Who put you in that position?
Mr. DORENZO. David Barksdale.

The CHAIRMAN. How did you folks get these jobs? Somebody had to authorize both Barksdale and you.

Mr. DORENZO. How did we get introduced to the program?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DORENZO. It was at the South Town Y. That was the Englewood Disciples' headquarters.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you first hear about this TWO program? Mr. DORENZO. It was introduced to me by Chuck LaPaglia and Eugene Hairston.

The CHAIRMAN. They introduced the program to you?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true. David Barksdale told them to bring it

to me.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you represented the Disciples in the arrangements about your group coming into the program? Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. You were the negotiator and the one that made the decision, subject, I suppose, to Barksdale's approval? Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You were the man who was the contact man and made the arrangements?

Mr. DORENZO. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us why you went into it.

Mr. DORENZO. We seen everybody would benefit from it, we thought it was a good idea, the salaries we were getting, after it was explained to us we would be making in this thing.

The CHAIRMAN. They explained to you you would be making pretty good salaries?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they explain to you your group was to be the teachers and instructors?

Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you set up the program so far as the Disciples were concerned?

Mr. DORENZO. That is right, enrolling in school and going to meetings.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us how it operated.

Mr. DORENZO. How did the school operate?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. DORENZO. At first, we didn't have any center when it was first started.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't have what?

Mr. DORENZO. Didn't have any centers. You know, centers for the school.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't have a center?

Mr. DORENZO. No. We operated out of the Trianon Ballroom which is the Joyland Ballroom now. TWO rented it from Mr. Wilbur Sidney. The CHAIRMAN. Had you folks been renting the ballroom before that?

Mr. DORENZO. No, sir.