The CHAIRMAN. But you think you know it goes on in the Rangers? Mr. DORENZO. It do go on. The CHAIRMAN. The police have testified accordingly. I think maybe Rose did. Mr. DORENZO. The Disciples do not shoot by contract, no. The CHAIRMAN. They don't do it by contract? Mr. DORENZO. No. The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by contract? Somebody selects you to do it? Mr. DORENZO. That is right. In other words, the Main 21 you do this and has a member to do it. This is the way they ran it. I know how the club was ran, how they do the shooting and things. The CHAIRMAN. You are familiar with it. Who do you think gave orders for you to be shot when you were leaving there? Mr. DORENZO. I will explain that to you privately. Senator CURTIS. You base your information on what went on in the Rangers, in part on the fact that some Rangers who feel that they are mishandled or they are frightened, come over to the Disciples, become a Disciple for a little protection, is that right? Mr. DORENZO. A lot of Rangers have told me, one Ranger told me one time that Chuck LaPaglia was tied up in the church and whipped because something didn't go along. The CHAIRMAN. He was tied up in the church and whipped? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. In the First Presbyterian Church by the Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. Whipped by the Rangers right in the church? The CHAIRMAN. Because he didn't do something that the gang wanted him to do? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. Senator CURTIS. You don't know about that. You were told that. Mr. DORENZO. I was told that by a Ranger. Senator CURTIS. During the time that you have been a member of the Disciples, how many Disciples have been killed, that is, murdered, not accidentally-I don't want you to say by whom but how many of them would you say have been killed during this time? Mr. DORENZO. Shot in cold blood? Senator CURTIS. Shot or otherwise killed. I am excluding any accidents. Mr. DORENZO. A lot of them I think were accidents. These boys weren't trained to shoot no one. We didn't have no professional training on how to shoot a weapon. Senator CURTIS. So there was some killing that was accidental because they didn't know about the weapon? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. Senator CURTIS. I will change my question then. How many Disciples have been killed in cold blood by someone, you don't have to identify whom, during the time you have been associated with them? Mr. DORENZO. I know of only two that I would really felt were killed in cold blood. Senator CURTIS. About how many have been seriously injured that probably indicated an attempt to kill them? Mr. DORENZO. I don't know offhand. I know the injuries of them runs over into the seventies and eighties. I know at least 70 or 80 boys that have been injured by the Blackstone Rangers. And probably on their side, too. Because if we was hit there was retaliation on the part of anybody getting hurt in the organization. Senator CURTIS. Part of that was by firearms and part of it would be otherwise? Mr. DORENZO. Pipes, if they could get hold of one of them. The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you about the records of the OEO training program. Were they kept accurately? Mr. DORENZO. At the start of it they was kept pretty accurate, you know, attendance. The CHAIRMAN. Then what happened? Mr. DORENZO. Like I said, again it looked like the professional people in the program just lost their interest, the promises they had made to us, you know. The gang itself, being untrained, you know, which was getting trained, just didn't care either. They went there to accept the money. That was it. The CHAIRMAN. Were any checks made out for trainees who did not attend! Mr. DORENZO. Attend school, yes. The CHAIRMAN. Checks were made out whether they attended or not? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Would you call that falsifying the record? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, they got paid for something they did not even pretend to do? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. How did you handle the timesheet on that? Mr. DORENZO. Certain members would sign these boys' timesheets. The CHAIRMAN. Other members would sign their timesheets when they weren't there? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. So the record would show they were there? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And they would get their checks? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Was this done frequently? Mr. DORENZO. Quite frequently. Plus the kickback. Sometimes they would get $45, you know, from an individual that was supposed to be in the program who wasn't there. The CHAIRMAN. What would happen to that money, to that $45? Mr. DORENZo. It went to David Barksdale. The CHAIRMAN. The whole business? Mr. DORENZO. The whole business. Every piece of money went to him. The CHAIRMAN. I know. But here somebody didn't attend. The records were falsified. They got the money? Mr. DORENZo. That is true. $5-779-68-pt. 11-15 The CHAIRMAN. Did he get the money, the fellow who was supposed to be there, attending school? Mr. DORENZO. No, the club got it. The CHAIRMAN. The whole $45? The CHAIRMAN. The whole salary? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. That enhanced the treasury a little bit that way, too, didn't it? Mr. DORENZo. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. Did you get any of that at the time you collected that $2,300? Mr. DORENZO. No. The CHAIRMAN. There wasn't any of it paid in that fashion? Mr. DORENZO. If there was, you know, everybody that I got money from on payday, you know, this was up in January The CHAIRMAN. You got money from the people? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. This didn't start until later, in March really. This is when we falsified the stuff coming in. The CHAIRMAN. I have a notation here, I assume it comes from some statement you made to the staff, that the Rangers and Disciples started their war because the Blackstone Rangers wanted all the territory in Woodlawn. Mr. DORENZO. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And wanted to run the rackets: narcotics, gambling, prostitution, extortion, and other things. They wanted to take over all the territory. Mr. DORENZo. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. Is that why the gang war started? Mr. DORENZO. This is the main reason why it started. The CHAIRMAN. The main reason why it started. I have one other question. I see a notation here that you have made the statement that the program failed and put the boys back on the street and that they are bitter, those of the Disciples. Are they bitter about it? The CHAIRMAN. Why? Mr. DORENZO. Because jobs were promised to them. A lot of them was sent out on jobs after the program was ended but there wasn't no supervision after this if these boys did not get this job. Normally they would go back The CHAIRMAN. They were sent out to get jobs and didn't get them? Mr. DORENZO. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. What was this meeting with some fellow from Watts out in California? Mr. DORENZO. I didn't meet any fellows from Watts. Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time, did you have a truce? Was that truce still in effect in July? Mr. DORENZo. It was still in effect. Mr. ADLERMAN. There was no war going on? Mr. DORENZO. No. Mr. ADLERMAN. They brought the boys in from Watts to try to cool off a fight between the two gangs but there was no such fighting? Mr. DORENZo. No. The CHAIRMAN. You were not in on that conference? Mr. DORENZO. No, but I know the fellows from Watts were there. but why, I don't know. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Mr. ADLERMAN. I have just one. The CHAIRMAN. I don't believe I made this cover on the chart an exhibit. Let it be made; whatever is the chart's number, make it A. Mark it "205A." The smaller chart can be made 205B. (The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit Nos. 205A and 205B" for reference. Exhibit No. 205A faces p. 2404. Exhibit No. 205B may be found in the files of the subcommittee.) Mr. DORENZO. Senator, Davis stayed in the program. He was the only one that stayed in it as a nongang member. The CHAIRMAN. All the rest of them were gang members? Mr. DORENZO. Not John Malloy, Samuel Thomas, Tony Hunt. The CHAIRMAN. Tony Hunt, John Maloy, and Samuel Thomas left? The CHAIRMAN. Anderson Davis stayed with the program? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. All these boys were high school graduates at the time they were in the program. Mr. ADLERMAN. You hired those four men because they had some education? Mr. DORENZo. That is true. Mr. ADLERMAN. You tried to get instructors who could really teach the boys something? Mr. DORENZo. That is true. Mr. ADLERMAN. These were not Disciple members? You took them because they had an education? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. Mr. ADLERMAN. You feel the program failed? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. Mr. ADLERMAN. Even though you tried hard? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. Mr. ADLERMAN. Why do you feel the program failed? Mr. DORENZO. Like I said before, the boys were pretty sore about the promises that was made to them. Reverend Brazier made a lot of promises which he threw off on Tony Gibbs. He is a young person, you know, he is not that old, which he could not hardly cope with, himself, because he didn't know the things to tell us. When we asked him why wasn't he hired they said, "Well, the job is there; you don't have to worry about it." They encouraged us enough to really feel that we would have jobs, that we would have work, you know. Another reason for them to get this program, I don't know if Reverend Fry had anything to do with this but Brazier was a strong defender to us. He would try to encourage us to do this. If I could give my personal opinion I would like to say something. I believe that Reverend Fry really put Reverend Brazier up to get this program to present it to the Disciples because he was a colored man, a Negro. The CHAIRMAN. To do what? Mr. DORENZO. I believe that Reverend Fry encouraged Reverend Brazier to come on our side. I thought he felt, he knew that he didn't have a chance to get around us, you know, as far as getting us to cooperate with him. The CHAIRMAN. Didn't you go into this in the beginning in good faith trying to have a training program that might help the boys get jobs? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. If it were supervised right, I think it would be 100-percent gain. The CHAIRMAN. If it had proper supervision you think it would work? Mr. DORENZO. That is true. For myself in this program it didn't work. Mr. ADLERMAN. Do I understand you to say that you feel that Reverend Fry got Brazier to approach you or put you in the program because he felt without you he could not get the project? Mr. DORENZO. They couldn't have had it. I believe that one was written for the Blackstone Rangers only. Mr. ADLERMAN. The reason they wanted the Disciples in the project is because they wanted to buy peace between the Blackstone Rangers and the Disciples? Mr. DORENZo. That is true. The CHAIRMAN. The first application sent in was for the Blackstone Rangers, is that right? Mr. DORENZO. I heard it was written only for the Blackstone Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. You understood that at the time? Mr. DORENZo. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. When were you approached about it? Mr. DORENZO. Yes. If you would like the names, I will give it to you secretly. The CHAIRMAN. Names of whom in secret? Mr. DORENZO. Where I got this information from. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you feel that if you had proper supervision from the Woodlawn Organization, professional supervision, professional teachers, that it could have been a successful project? Mr. DORENZO. Yes, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. If you had proper supervision, proper direction, and a real program for teaching. Mr. DORENZO. I even thought we could run it but the group, itself. for me being in the leadership it was kind of hard for the leaders to control these members, you know. Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you think gang leaders are equipped to teach the younger fellows? Mr. DORENZO. No, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Not to get them jobs, teach them how to get a job, give them enough training for that? |