turned in be stored in the safe of the First Presbyterian. This was a wall safe. That was for a period of 30 days. The CHAIRMAN. How many weapons did they indicate they would turn in in these preliminary negotiations? Mr. ZELKOVICH. They were talking about hundreds of weapons. Mr.ZELKOVICH. Jeff Fort and Lamar Bell. The CHAIRMAN. The two from the gang mentioned they could turn in hundreds of weapons? Mr.ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That was said there in the church? The CHAIRMAN. In the presence of Walker and LaPaglia, is that correct, who were negotiating on behalf of the church? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Or on behalf of Fry, or whoever. Mr. ZELKOVICH. So they stipulated that the weapons be put in the church safe for a period of 30 days. The CHAIRMAN. Who stipulated that? Mr.ZELKOVICH. This was Reverend Walker and Charles LaPaglia. The CHAIRMAN. Why did they want to keep them in the church for 30 days? Mr. ZELKOVICH. They suggested this would be a guarantee or an insurance of good faith on the part of the city of Chicago and the representatives from the Treasury Department that we would, in turn, because of a good turn-in, which they had projected and proposed, that we would guarantee that pressure would be taken off the Blackstone Rangers from the Chicago Police Department, and they would apply pressure to the East Side Disciples who were the real troublemakers in Woodlawn. The CHAIRMAN. One gang wanted to get you off of them and put you onto the other gang; is that what it amounted to? Mr. ZELKOVICH. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. And these church officials were the ones who were trying to make this kind of a deal with you? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir; actually, I wasn't in this deal as far as my office. The CHAIRMAN. You were just an observer? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Right. My role there was that if any Federalviolation-type weapons were turned in, I told them they couldn't be put in the church safe because they were contraband. There are no property rights. The CHAIRMAN. You couldn't make an agreement like that? Mr. ZELKOVICH. No. The CHAIRMAN. And you didn't? Mr. ZELKOVICH. I didn't. The CHAIRMAN. We just heard the signal saying a rollcall vote. That means we will have to recess for a few moments and go vote. (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken at 3:25 p.m., with the following members present: Senators McClellan and Mundt.) (Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the subcommittee reconvened after a brief recess with the following members present: Senators McClellan and Mundt \ The CHAIRMAN. The committee will resume. We were talking about the Reverend Walker and LaPaglia insisting that the weapons turned in would be stored in the church safe for 30 days and that the police were to ease up on the Rangers and concentrate their efforts on the Disciples. Mr.ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you make any such agreement? Mr.ZELKOVICH. No, sir; I couldn't. In my position, I couldn't. The CHAIRMAN. What actually then happened? Was that discussed at some length by Russell and others? Mr. ZELKOVICH. We all discussed it. I told Russell I wasn't for a 30-day detention of weapons in the safe. As I mentioned in my previous testimony, I wouldn't have any Federal-type weapons stored in the safe. Any Federal-type weapons that were turned in would be seized by me. Senator MUNDT. Will you tell us what you mean by Federal-type weapon? Mr.ZELKOVICH. I mean a sawed-off shotgun, sawed-off rifle, zip gun, automatic weapon. The CHAIRMAN. You wanted to make sure that no weapons you had jurisdiction over would stay in 30 days? Mr.ZELKOVICH. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You did not participate in that agreement? The CHAIRMAN. What happened with respect to Russell and Walker and LaPaglia? Mr. ZELKOVICH. After further and prolonged debate, Mr. Russell eventually acquiesced to their demands. I think his reason, we discussed it afterward and his reasoning was that any weapon taken off the street was one less weapon that could be used in the crime of violence. This was his reasoning. I thought it was good myself. The CHAIRMAN. You what? Mr. ZELKOVICH. If I was in that situation I would probably agree, too. After all, we were dealing with clerical people, representatives of the church. So I figured it would be a good deal. The CHAIRMAN. You figured what? Mr.ZELKOVICH. It would have been a good deal, a good agreement. The CHAIRMAN. Dealing with a preacher, you thought that was a good deal? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Go ahead. Mr.ZELKOVICH. So, the turn-in of weapons was set for the next day, which was July 2, for the hours of 6 o'clock p.m. to 10 o'clock p.m. The police were to be notified, the police of that district, that area, and we would have assistance and vehicles would be provided and the weapons would be brought to the First Presbyterian Church. The CHAIRMAN. Were some guns turned in at that time? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Have you a list of them here? Mr.ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir, I do. The CHAIRMAN. Go over it hurriedly so that we can Mr. ZELKOVICH. I made an inventory of the list of weapons that were turned in. 85-779-68-pt. 11- -17 The CHAIRMAN. Let this inventory be printed in the record as you have it in your statement. Do you have it in your statement? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. I will cover it briefly. I won't go through full nomenclature. As far as serial numbers and length of barrels, do you want that or a fast rundown? The CHAIRMAN. I have a list of them here, apparently. Senator MUNDT. You saw them turned in? Mr.ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. Senator MUNDT. As they were turned in were they put in the safe or delivered to you? Mr. ZELKOVICH. They were put on the table during the hours of 6 to 10 o'clock. We inventoried them. Senator MUNDT. They never were being actually put in the safe? Mr. ZELKOVICH. They were put in the safe sometime after 10 o'clock. The CHAIRMAN. Did you seize any guns? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir, I did. The CHAIRMAN. You submit a list. We won't go over all of them. How many weapons were turned in? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Approximately 38 weapons. The CHAIRMAN. Approximately 38 weapons. You have a list of them? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Let that list be printed in the record as part of your testimony if you say the list is correct. Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. One Colt single action .45 caliber revolver, serial number 136275. One Springfield model 83, .22 caliber, sawed-off rifle, barrel length 12 inches, overall length 30 inches, no serial number. One Daisy air rifle converted to chamber, .32 caliber shell. One Mossberg, model 142-A, .22 caliber bolt action rifle, no serial number. One Spencer, 12-gage single barrel shotgun, serial number 5760. One Stevens model 87-D, .22 caliber semiautomatic, no serial number. One Spencer 12-gage sawed-off shotgun, barrel length 141⁄2 inches, overall length 22 inches, no serial number, stock cut to a pistol grip. One Webley, .38 caliber revolver, serial number J-497. One bayonet, serial number 14675, blade 20 inches long. One carbine bayonet, blade 612 inches long. One riding crop converted to sword or bayonet. One blackjack. One RTS Italian, .22 caliber revolver, 8 shot, serial number 186165. One Geco model 1925, 6-millimeter caliber, bolt action rifle, serial number 57611, barrel length 23 inches, overall length 32 inches. One 20-pound pull bow and arrow-one arrow steel tip. One black prince, Bridge Gun Co., .410 caliber sawed-off shotgun, serial number A-803636, barrel length 131⁄2 inches. One Smith & Wesson model 49, .38 caliber five-shot revolver, serial No. 197202. One zip gun-toy frame .38-to fire a .32 caliber. Five assorted long-blade knives. Five assorted pocket knives. One meat hook. One kutto knife. One meat cleaver. The CHAIRMAN. What guns did you seize? Mr. ZELKOVICH. I seized a Springfield sawed-off rifle, a converted Daisy air rifle. This is an air rifle that is converted to fire fixed ammunition. It was converted to fire a .32 caliber bullet. The CHAIRMAN. Is that what we call an air gun? Mr. ZELKOVICH. It is a lever-action air rifle. The CHAIRMAN. That is not called a Springfield model-83? Mr. ZELKOVICH. The Springfield model 83 was a sawed-off .22 rifle. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Mr. ZELKOVICH. Then the converted Daisy air rifle. One 12-gage sawed-off shotgun, one .410-gage sawed-off shotgun, and one .32 caliber zip gun. The CHAIRMAN. Five weapons you seized? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. I seized these weapons and transported them to our evidence room. The CHAIRMAN. What else did you find besides the guns? We weren't too pleased with the turn-in. At that time we had information that the gang had a membership of approximately 800 to 1,200 members. Using a figure of 10 percent, which was small, we figured 80 to a hundred weapons should have been turned in. I am speaking of firearms-not knives, meathooks, machetes, or zip guns. The CHAIRMAN. I understand that Reverend Fry represented hundreds would be turned in. Mr. ZELKOVICH. That was not Reverend Fry. The CHAIRMAN. Fort represented? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Fort and Lamar Bell. The CHAIRMAN. They had represented-the two gang leaders—that there would be hundreds turned in? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Hundreds. The CHAIRMAN. So, instead of that you got 38 weapons altogether? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes. We waited until 10 o'clock that evening, the evening of the 2d. Fort stated he thought he could do better, give him another day to try. Another turn-in day was set up, the morning of July 4th. We waited at the First Presbyterian Church on the Fourth of July from 9 o'clock a.m. to approximately 1 o'clock p.m. The only item brought in was one fragmentation handgrenade which was turned over to the Chicago police. That was sent down to the bomb and arson division. Senator MUNDT. You said 37 weapons? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Thirty-eight weapons. Senator MUNDT. Are you talking about guns? Mr. ZELKOVICH. No. Senator MUNDT. Does it include the meat hooks? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Meathooks, meat cleavers. Senator MUNDT. Long-blade knives, pocket knives, and all these? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. Senator MUNDT. That makes it 24 firearms plus these knives? Senator MUNDT. Actually, you got only 24 firearms? Mr. ZELKOVICH. I think it was less than 24. Senator MUNDT. I made a quick calculation. One was a blackjack. You would not call that a gun. A riding crop, you would not call that a gun. The CHAIRMAN. Did you feel as if a good-faith effort had been made in compliance with the understanding? Mr. ZELKOVICH. No, sir, I didn't. But I did convey the results of the turn-in. The CHAIRMAN. To whom? Mr. ZELKOVICH. To Judge Comerford. I conveyed the results of the turn-in. The CHAIRMAN. You reported the results? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. What happened to the case of Jeff Fort and Hairston? Mr. ZELKOVICH. Hairston, on June 24 on the day that Fort, Hairston, and the others were apprehended and arrested, this is when Judge Comerford set a $10,000 bond on Jeff Fort. He originally had $2,500 which made it $12,500. Hairston's probation officer entered the courtroom. Hairston received 60 days for violation of probation. The CHAIRMAN. Did he actually go to jail? Mr. ZELKOVICH. He went to jail, yes, sir. With Jeff Fort, on July 7, he was tried. He was continued to July 26. On the 26th, he was continued to September 15. My understanding is that, as the result of this, Jeff Fort was finally sentenced to 30 days in Bridewell. The CHAIRMAN. Sentenced to where? Mr.ZELKOVICH. In Bridewell. This is a jail in Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Thank you very much. Call the next witness. Mr. ADLERMAN. Sgt. Neal Wilson. The CHAIRMAN. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give this Senate subcommittee, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. WILSON. I do. TESTIMONY OF NEAL WILSON The CHAIRMAN. Be seated. State your name, place of residence, and present business or occupation. Mr. WILSON. Sgt. Neal Wilson, Chicago, Ill., community services sergeant, third district police. The CHAIRMAN. What kind of sergeant? Mr. WILSON. Community services sergeant. The CHAIRMAN. Did you attend a meeting at the First Presbyterian Church on August 3, 1966? Mr. WILSON. I did. |