The CHAIRMAN. What was the purpose of that meeting and who was present? Mr. WILSON. The purpose of the meeting was to seize guns that had been stored at the First Presbyterian Church. The CHAIRMAN. Under some arrangement that they would be there for 30 days? Mr. WILSON. Yes. This happened at a prior meeting I attended. There has been testimony by the witness The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been with the police force? Mr. WILSON. Twenty-one years. The CHAIRMAN. You attended the meeting on August 3d for the purpose of getting the guns that had been in storage there? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. For 30 days under some prior arrangement or agreement? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you try to get the guns? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Whom did you try to get them from, who was present? Mr. WILSON. Reverend Fry of the First Presbyterian Church, Chuck LaPaglia of the First Presbyterian Church, Lamar Bell of the Blackstone Rangers, Bernard Green of the Blackstone Rangers, Treasury Agent Carl Hamback, the Alcohol Tax Unit agent. Francis Daggett; Tom Russell, department of investigations, city of Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Russell had made the original agreements? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Mr. WILSON. I was notified of this meeting of August 3 by a Sgt. Garland Davis who was assigned at that time to the Chicago Police Department Youth Group Intelligence Unit. I was told that Reverend Fry was going to release the weapons to the police department at this meeting. The CHAIRMAN. You went out there expecting to get the weapons? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. I took a patrol wagon with me, ropes, containers to put the weapons in, this type of thing. The CHAIRMAN. This was on August 3? Mr. WILSON. This was on August 3, 1966. The CHAIRMAN. Did you make an official report of your action that day or the next? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The next day I submitted an official report to Commander Griffin, commanding officer of the third district police. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a copy of that report? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir, I do. The CHAIRMAN. Read your report into the record. I assume you reported in some detail what had happened. Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. As I understand it, you did not get the weapons? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You are reporting back on your mission and what happened, why you didn't get the weapons? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. That report was made the following day? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. This is the report that you made from which you are now reading? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. WILSON. The report is to the district commander of the third district and is from Sgt. Neal Wilson. This subject is "Information Report": 1. On August 3, 1966, at 1900 hours, this reporter was notified by telephone at his home by Sgt. Garland Davis of the Youth Group Intelligence Section-Youth Division that Rev. John Fry, Pastor of the 1st Presbyterian Church, 6400 S. Kimbark had contacted him and said that he wanted to surrender some weapons that had been turned over to the church for safekeeping on July 2, 1966, by the Blackstone Rangers. The undersigned went to the First Presbyterian Church at 2030 hrs. where this reporter was met by Sgt. Davis and Rev. Fry. Rev. Fry informed this reporter that he was going to have a meeting with the Principals who were present at the conference where it was agreed that the Blackstone Rangers would turn in their weapons. Also present at this time were Carl Hamback and Francis Daggett of the U.S. Treasury Dept. Alcohol Tax Unit, Tom Russell-Department of Investigations, City of Chicago, Charles LaPaglia, First Presbyterian Church, Lamar Bell of the Blackstone Rangers and Bernard Green of the Blackstone Rangers. The meeting started with Rev. Fry, the Spokesman. Rev. Fry proceeded to tell the gathering that the Alcohol Tax Unit had come into the Blackstone Rangers territory and threatened them with jail sentences if they did not turn in their guns. As a result of this, the Rangers made an agreement with the Alcohol Tax Unit to turn over their guns to them with the condition that the guns be held in the church for a period of thirty days. During the thirty day period, The Chicago Police Dept. was to protect the Rangers from other youth gangs, and ease the pressure off the Rangers. Rev. Fry continued by saying the Police Dept. had not taken the pressure off the Rangers and was not giving the Rangers the protection they were supposed to have from other youth gangs. The CHAIRMAN. All of this you just read is what Fry was contending? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. He was speaking in a sarcastic tone. He called himself telling us off. The CHAIRMAN. He was telling you off? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. Mr. WILSON (reading): 2. At this point Carl Hamback of the Alcohol Tax Unit interrupted Rev. Fry and told Rev. Fry that he was not at the meeting that this supposed agreement was made with the Alcohol Tax Unit and further stated that his unit could not make any agreement with anyone such as the one related by Rev. Fry. Carl Hamback stated that the agents which handled the turning in of the weapons where the agreement was made was not available, at this time due to other assignments. This reporting officer told Rev. Fry that the Chicago Police Dept. had made no agreement with anyone concerning the weapons or the protection of the Blackstone Rangers against other youth gangs and would not make any agreement with the Rangers. The CHAIRMAN. That was you talking. You say this "reporting officer," meaning you? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. WILSON (reading): Rev. Fry was told by the undersigned that the Blackstone Rangers would be arrested if they committed a crime as anyone else that breaks the law. At this point this reporter asked Rev. Fry if he intended to surrender the guns that were turned into the church on the 2 July 1966. 3. Rev. Fry stated that since the agreement he had made with the Alcohol Tax Unit was not lived up to and the Blackstone Rangers were not being protected, he was not going to surrender the guns because the Rangers might need them to protect themselves. At this point this reporter excused himself and left the meeting. The CHAIRMAN. Did you demand the guns? Mr. WILSON. I requested the guns at this time, and being refused by the Reverend Fry saying that he was not going to surrender the guns because the Rangers might need them to protect themselves, I didn't pursue it with him. The CHAIRMAN. As I remember his testimony, he said you did not demand the guns, you did not request them. Mr. WILSON. Reverend Fry is not telling the truth when he says I did not request the guns. I most certainly did request the guns from him. The CHAIRMAN. That is what you went there for? Mr. WILSON. That was my purpose in going there. The CHAIRMAN. Your instructions were to go there and get the guns? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You carried what with you for that purpose? The CHAIRMAN. A patrol wagon? Mr. WILSON. I had two officers assigned to the patrol wagon. I did not have it personally, myself. But I had a patrol wagon. I went in my private car. I had cardboard, string, rope, this type of thing to wrap the weapons in. The CHAIRMAN. I am sorry. We have another rollcall vote. Mr. WILSON. It was approved by the commander that I go where the guns were. The CHAIRMAN. Your whole purpose to go to the church was to get the guns? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You will just have to be happy again for a few moments until we get back. (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) (Whereupon, the subcommittee reconvened after the taking of a brief recess with the following members present: Senators McClellan and Mundt.) The CHAIRMAN. We will proceed. Now with respect to your testimony about going there to get the guns, taking a patrol wagon with which to remove them, I call your attention to Reverend Fry's testimony. I read now from page 3934 of the reporter's record. I asked him the question: The whole turn-in operation or process was completed on July 4th? His answer was: Yes, sir. Then I asked him : Were you ever called on to surrender those guns? I asked him then: The police of Chicago did not call on you to surrender those guns? Did you refuse? His answer: No, not to my knowledge. I asked him then: Did you say at the time the reason your refused was because the Blackstone Rangers needed those guns to protect themselves. His answer: No, sir, no, sir. I asked him then: You say that didn't occur? He said: No, sir. Now, what do you say as to his testimony? Mr. WILSON. I say that it did occur. I appeared at the First Presbyterian Church. The meeting was held with myself, Reverend Fry, and the other people I mentioned previously. Reverend Fry knew full well at that time that our purpose was for getting the guns that had been turned in on the 2d of July. There is no doubt in my mind that Reverend Fry understood our purpose for being there was to get the guns that had been turned in. The CHAIRMAN. Is his testimony true that to his knowledge he never requested the guns? Mr. WILSON. No, sir: that is not true, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Could he possibly be mistaken about it? Mr. WILSON. I don't see how he could be mistaken, sir. The CHAIRMAN. This was last year, 2 years ago? Mr. WILSON. This was in 1966. The CHAIRMAN. 1966? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If he says he didn't refuse to turn them over, why was it necessary to get a search warrant to go get them? Mr. WILSON. This is the only alternative that the police department had to get the weapons because of the fact that Reverend Fry refused in this instance to voluntarily turn over the weapons to the police department. The CHAIRMAN. You did not get the search warrant for quite some time. Was some further effort made to get him to turn them over? Mr. WILSON. No, sir; not by me. The CHAIRMAN. You don't know about the others? Mr. WILSON. I don't know about any others. The CHAIRMAN. I read here excerpts from the page of the record to which I referred and the succeeding page, I believe. The staff has checked the record hurriedly and they indicate to me that they find some 11 different times in his testimony where Reverend Fry denied that any demand or request was made on him for those guns. What is your comment about it? Did you misrepresent the facts here? Did you misrepresent the facts in your report the next day? Mr. WILSON. No, sir; the report as I stated here is the truth. The CHAIRMAN. You did not know then you were going to be here testifying today, did you? Mr. WILSON. I most certainly did not, not 2 years ago. The CHAIRMAN. You did not know he was going to be asked these questions, did you? Mr. WILSON. No, sir; I didn't. The CHAIRMAN. You stated in your report the facts, the truth, the next day after the conference? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir; I did. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? Senator MUNDT. No questions. Mr. WILSON. I might add something to that, Senator McClellan. As I was leaving this meeting after having been-after Reverend Fry made the statement he would not surrender the guns because of the fact that the Rangers might need them, Officer Mims was also working on this same problem, the acquisition of these guns, he entered and as I was leaving he started a conversation with Reverend Fry in regard to him releasing the guns. He wanted to know why he would not release the guns. The CHAIRMAN. As you were leaving? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Did you hear Reverend Fry's answer? Mr. WILSON. No, sir; I did not hear his answer because I kept going out. I was through with him. The CHAIRMAN. You were through with him after he would not turn over the guns? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Would you have left if he had been willing to turn over the guns? Mr. WILSON. I would have stayed and inventoried the weapons on official police inventory records and turned them over to our property section. The CHAIRMAN. And made a report of it? Mr. WILSON. And made a report of it. The CHAIRMAN. What was one of the purposes for his holding the guns? Did he tell you-other than for protection of the Rangers? Mr. WILSON. At the meeting mentioned in earlier testimony, of July 2, I learned The CHAIRMAN. You did not hear that? Mr. WILSON. Yes, I heard this from people who had been involved in the meeting that made the arrangements, this Tom Russell and several of the Alcohol Tax Men, that they were going to hold the weapons for a period of 30 days. |