I had no prior knowledge of this turn-in of weapons before the evening of July 1, 1966. I was informed of this supposed turn-in of weapons by Jeff Fort, Eugene Hairston, and Lamar Bell, who made a trip over to our district headquarters and informed me and Commander Griffin that they were going to turn in their guns the next day at the First Presbyterian Church.

The CHAIRMAN. And for what purpose?

Mr. WILSON. They did not state to us at this time what the purpose mentioned here was.

They stated that they wanted to show good faith, they wanted us to believe that they were going to be good guys and were going to cooperate with the authorities and they wanted us to know that they were going to turn in their weapons at the First Presbyterian Church.

The CHAIRMAN. Was anything said about bargaining to get some of them off easy?

Mr. WILSON. No. Sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not hear that?

Mr. WILSON. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator MUNDT. Are you assigned in your normal and regular duties to this particular neighborhood?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. You have known about the Black Rangers for a long time?

Mr. WILSON. I live in Woodlawn, sir.

Senator MUNDT. What would be your professional judgment as to the percentage of weapons which were actually turned in, 24 or 25, talking now just about the weapons, not the knives or clubs?

Do you think they turned in a majority of the weapons that the Black Rangers had?

Mr. WILSON. No, I don't believe they turned in the majority of the weapons that were at their disposal.

No, I don't. I don't think they did at all. I think it was merely a token compliance, myself.

Senator MUNDT. Just a token compliance?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. Most of the weapons that were turned in I don't really believe were really serviceable. There were several weapons that were serviceable. There was one revolver I remember because we later checked and found that this revolver had been taken in a burglary. It was a hand gun. It was a .38 caliber weapon. There were several other weapons that were in fairly good operating condition.

Most of the weapons turned in were clubs, several blackjacks, meat cleavers, a couple of meathooks, this type of thing, things that could be converted into weapons if the need came about.

Senator MUNDT. Of which there must be thousands in every city? Mr. WILSON. True, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Clubs, meat cleavers?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir. The great majority of them were weapons other than firearms.

Senator MUNDT. Some of the firearms were not operable?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That gun that you said that had been taken in a burglary, when had the burglary occurred?

Mr. WILSON. The burglary had occurred in 1965.

The CHAIRMAN. Now you could not take the guns when you were there without his permission. You had no right to do that.

Mr. WILSON. No, sir. In fact, I didn't even know where the guns were located in the church.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not see them there?

Mr. WILSON. No, sir. The last time I saw the guns was on the 2d of July when they were turned in. When we left, I left the guns on the table of the office of the First Presbyterian Church where they had been placed.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the last time you saw them?

Mr. WILSON. That is the last time I saw them until the time they were taken from the church as a result of the search warrant being issued and our unit from our headquarters going into the church and taking the weapons.

The CHAIRMAN. That is November 10?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator MUNDT. What transpired to produce the search warrant? Mr. WILSON. The factors I mentioned about the one gun becoming known was taken in a burglary by a serial number, the fact that we had been receiving information from members of the Blackstone Rangers and other youths that guns were in the church and that the guns were in the possession of some gang members in the church. This is what we based our information for the search warrant on.

Senator MUNDT. Were you there when the search warrant was presented?

Mr. WILSON. No, sir, I was not.

Senator MUNDT. Somebody else did that?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.

Call the next witness.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Officer Mims.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be sworn?

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MIMS. I do.

TESTIMONY OF OFFICER ULESTER MIMS

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated.

State your name, place of residence.

Mr. MIMS. Ulester Mims, youth officer, police department, Chicago, Ill.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. MIMS. Sixteen years.

The CHAIRMAN. What territory do you cover? What is your jurisdiction?

Mr. MIMS. The Northwest Side, mostly.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that include

Mr. MIMS. No, this is a long way away from that section.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. MIMS. It is a long way away from that section, opposite side of the city.

The CHAIRMAN. You are on the opposite side of the city?

Mr. MIMS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you serve on the other side of the city at some time?

Mr. MIMS. On two occasions, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. On two occasions. When were they?

Mr. MIMS. July 2, 1966, and August 3, 1966.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what happened on those occasions.

Mr. MIMS. On July 2, 1966, I was detailed into the gang intelligence unit. I was working on the Northwest Side around Division Street and Sergeant Davis of the youth intelligence section told me to go to the Southeast Side to the First Presbyterian Church because the Blackstone Rangers were going to turn in their arsenal.

The CHAIRMAN. Who else accompanied you?

Mr. MIMS. He told me to meet an officer from the third district and Chuck LaPaglia would be at the church.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was the officer from the third district?
Mr. MIMS. He didn't tell me but it was Sgt. Neal Wilson.
The CHAIRMAN. You met there. What happened?

Mr. MIMS. I got to the church early. Only Chuck LaPaglia and some members of the Blackstone Rangers were present when I arrived. The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what happened.

Mr. MIMS. I asked him, had all the weapons been turned in that were supposed to be turned in? LaPaglia told me he wasn't sure. I asked him did he contact all the branches of the Blackstone Rangers, all the different cells or units, and he said "No."

I suggested that he send one of the Rangers along and I would take him and they would contact all the units and tell them to bring all the weapons to the church. I took one of the Rangers with me, Lamar Bell. The CHAIRMAN. That was on the 3d?

Mr. MIMS. On the 3d. We went around to the various units of the Blackstone Rangers. He contacted different members and he told them to bring their weapons over to the church.

The CHAIRMAN. That was July 3?

Mr. MIMS. July 3.

When I got back to the church there were several people present at the church when I got back. Among them was Officer Neal Wilson and the representatives of the Alcohol Tax Unit and Bill Russell.

Then I found out that the guns were not supposed to be released to the police department, which I didn't know about at that time. They were supposed to be kept for a period of 30 days. So I left the church and I called Sergeant Davis and asked him did he know anything about a deal to keep the weapons for a period of 30 days before turning them over.

He said "no," he didn't. This was complete news to him.

I asked him what should I do. He said:

Don't go back. We will both go on the date they are supposed to make the turn-in on the weapons.

He wanted me to be present, not to inventory the weapons because this was the duty of the district we happened to be in, the third district. It is the duty of the district in which this happened to occur to inventory the weapons.

We were only supposed to be present to see how many weapons were turned in. On the 3d, I went back.

The CHAIRMAN. On August 3?

Mr. MIMS. On the 3d of August I went back.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened?

Mr. MIMS. I was late this time. When I got in Reverend Fry was in a heated argument with Sergeant Wilson.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the argument about?

Mr. MIMS. Sergeant Wilson was demanding the guns to be turned over to him and Reverend Fry was refusing to turn them over.

The CHAIRMAN. Was what?

Mr. MIMS. Was refusing to turn the weapons over to the third district officer.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard me read from the record a few minutes ago and heard me question Sergeant Wilson as to what Reverend Fry had sworn to here a few days ago about no demands were made on him to turn over the guns, no request was made?

Mr. MIMS. I heard it.

The CHAIRMAN. What about it?

Mr. MIMS. It is not true. I don't know if he had a lapse of memory, he deliberately told something that wasn't true, or what; but it is not true.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen any evidence of his having a lapse of memory?

Mr. MIMS. No, I haven't; but I know that is not true.

The CHAIRMAN. You know that was not true?

Mr. MIMS. I was present. That was not true.

The CHAIRMAN. They were already in an argument about it when you came in the door?

Mr. MIMS. Yes, and Sergeant Wilson said, "Fine, you are not going to give me the weapons; there is no need for me to wait any longer. The CHAIRMAN. He left?

Mr. MIMS. He left.

The CHAIRMAN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MIMS. I asked him, I said:

I didn't know anything about this agreement to keep the guns for 30 days. The question I have is why do they have the guns in the first place?

The CHAIRMAN. What did he say?

Mr. MIMS. He said they needed the guns to protect their territory. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, this is a minister insisting that youthful gang members have guns to protect their so-called territory? Mr. MIMS. That is right. I asked him in a sarcastic voice

The CHAIRMAN. Is that conducive to law enforcement, peace and tranquillity in the community?

Mr. MIMS. No; it is not. On the contrary, it encourages lawlessness. The CHAIRMAN. What else was said there?

Mr. MIMS. I asked him, I said, "Will you please tell me what you consider their territory?" One of the Rangers, I think it was Bernard Green, proceeded to give me a geographical outline of what they considered their territory.

The CHAIRMAN. What did they mean by "their territory"?

Mr. MIMS. That is what I wanted to know. I started to question him, "How do you consider this your territory?" I was interrupted by someone. I asked the Reverend Fry at that particular point, I said:

Don't you think it is the duty of the police department to protect any territory in the city, or the law enforcement agency?

He said the police were too much in evidence in the Ranger territory as it was.

The CHAIRMAN. Too much in evidence?

Mr. MIMS. In the Ranger territory.

The CHAIRMAN. As it was?

Mr. MIMS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That was 2 years ago, 1966?

Mr. MIMS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. He was complaining then about police being in the territory?

Mr. MIMS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. MIMS. Then he changed the subject. He said he wanted Hairston out of jail.

The CHAIRMAN. He wanted him out of jail?

Mr. MIMS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. MIMS. He didn't say; but he said if Eugene Hairston was not out of jail by Bud Billikin Day, the Rangers were going on a

rampage.

The CHAIRMAN. What date was that?

Mr. MIMS. Bud Billikin Day is always the second Thursday in August. At that time it came on the 13th.

The CHAIRMAN. It came on the 13th that year?

The CHAIRMAN. If Hairston was not out of jail by then-he was telling this to you, a policeman?

Mr. MIMS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. What reason did he give why Hairston should be

out of jail?

Mr. MIMS. He didn't. I said:

Do you mean to tell me you are attempting to blackmail the whole city?

The CHAIRMAN. You asked him that?

Mr. MIMS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he say?