Hearings, Reports and Prints of the Senate Committee on Government Operations

Mr. MIMS. He didn't answer. Lamar Bell answered for him. He said:

He didn't mean that. What he was trying to say was Hairston is the only one who can control these boys and they want to go on a rampage on Bud Billikin's Day. If we have Eugene with us he can stop it.

The CHAIRMAN. The only way to stop the riot was to get him out of jail?

Mr. MIMS. I said:

It is only a matter of semantics now. You are saying the same thing but you are putting it in a different light than Reverend Fry.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you understand it to be a kind of threat or hint?

Mr. MIMS. That is why I was asking if he was attempting to blackmail the city.

The CHAIRMAN. That is why you asked him that?

Mr. MIMS. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. In view of what transpired, as you have testified here, could it be possible that the Reverend's memory has slipped so that he would not remember that event 2 years ago?

Mr. MIмs. I don't think so. I remember it quite clearly. All my reports and everything were oral because I talked to Sergeant Davis by phone and he talked to me by phone.

I remember the use of the vernacular in the hassle we had.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know how there could be a misunderstanding.

If somebody's memory has failed to function, of course that might excuse him. Or if somebody is willfully on either side misrepresenting without his memory failing to function, clearly stating something that is false, this is pretty serious where a minister is involved.

Now he charges the police department with overactivity, overreacting in that community, being out to get the Rangers, and so forth. When you go to try to work out something to prevent violence there, to get the weapons, we find him, according to the police, taking the position that they need the weapons there to defend themselves. He didn't turn them over.

Mr. MIMS. There is one other thing he said. He was not supposed to turn them over to me. He was supposed to turn them over to Sergeant Wilson.

The CHAIRMAN. Sergeant Wilson had just left.

Mr. MIMS. I know it. I asked him, "Are the guns still in the safe?"
The CHAIRMAN. What did he say?

Mr. MIMS. He said, "Yes, but the door swings both ways."
The CHAIRMAN. What did that mean?

Mr. MIMS. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. They were in the safe but the door swings both ways?

Mr. MIMS. I guess they could be taken out the back and used for one purpose and put back in again and taken out of the front. He just said the door swings both ways.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, there is very serious conflict of testimony here.

It is going to be a surprise to many, apparently, to some at least, if it turns out that we have a minister telling untruths under oath before this committee.

Now I find no symptoms of lack of memory. Barring what you suggest, a lack of memory, somebody here is deliberately, willfully perjuring himself before this committee.

It is either a policeman or it is a minister. I hope the truth will ultimately be established. Whoever is guilty of the perjury will have to face the bar of justice and get what he deserves or what they deserve, as the case may be.

I hope you subscribe to that.

Mr. MIмs. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

The committee stands in recess until 10 o'clock in the morning. (Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m. the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, July 3, 1968.)

(Members present at time of recess: Senators McClellan and Mundt.)

RIOTS, CIVIL AND CRIMINAL DISORDERS

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

PERMANENT

SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON

GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE

NINETIETH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 216, 90TH CONGRESS