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That is the way he wants to get Senator McCarthy nominated. I don't imagine Senator McCarthy will appreciate it. I hope he doesn't. I don't believe he will. I want to absolve him from the outset unless there is some other indication.

Now I want to ask you in all candor-I think the country is entitled to know. This is emanating from Chicago where you are in charge of one of the units of the police force whose duty it is to uphold the law, to protect the people, and I assume you have the duty, of course, to protect this convention, to prevent these things from occurring. He is agitating and soliciting students to engage in this along with others.

I think the country should be given some assurance in view of these threats, I think the Democrats throughout the country would like to know, I think every good citizen of this country would like to know now whether your department, whether the police department out there and the law enforcement agencies are prepared to and can give assurance that such an outrageous action as is proposed and solicited here by Reverend Fry can be and will be prevented.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I would like to state emphatically at this time that if any attempt at such disorder by these people is contemplated that it will be stopped by the police department.

We are prepared now and will be then to see that law and order prevails. I would like to comment on that particular article. I have an article in front of me which has been mentioned on occasion.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the one you have in front of you the one I quoted from a few days ago and interrogated him about while he was on the witness stand ?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir. But I would like to carry that another step further. A point that was not brought out was that the subtitle of the article was called “The Great Chicago Fire of 1968."

It also mentions in a subparagraph regarding Mr. Fry, and I think this is important, that:

Mr. Fry's struggles on behalf of the Blackstone Rangers who reside at the First Presbyterian Church have brought him nationwide attention.

I ask you to keep that point in mind.

The CHAIRMAN. He is getting some more attention—I assume that is what he is trying to do-by threatening to break up the convention.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Now in the final paragraphs of the article he mentions that:

As for the Convention, the black people look upon it strictly as a place at which they can embarrass Daley. He got the Convention for his city because local convention-oriented businesses were demanding it. He had to promise peace and order to get it. He had to put his trustworthiness on the line.

The black community sees clearly that Daley's enormous prestige is composed of his ability to deliver votes and get dependable down-the-line performance from his ward organizations.

If black people can contribute to wrecking the convention they see they can partially wreck Daley's national prestige. This is their only remaining avende of communication. Perhaps then he will listen.

The CHAIRMAN. I quoted that to Reverend Fry and interrogated him about it and asked him if he meant to suggest or recommend that the black people and others undertake to break up and wreck the convention.

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I said awhile ago that the record will reflect that his answer was appe is quite evasive. I did not press him too far. I let him make his explana

tion. Now this article comes out.

I have not read all of it. There are many more quotations in here that I assume are correct. If they are correct, then I think it should be called to the attention of the American people with emphasis that this is one of the things that aggravates your problem in trying to control these lawless elements in Chicago and particularly those who belong to such gangs as the Blackstone Rangers and the Disciples and such other groups and organizations.

If this is the kind of support you get from people who are wearing cloth, who are ministers, you certainly have a tremendous problem.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. We certainly do because it always raises the issue, if this is the kind of guidance that these kids are given, then how in the world do you expect them to be law-abiding citizens when the kind of instructions that they are given

The CHAIRMAN. He testified he was the legal adviser of these people. And in that capacity I assume, in that capacity or as a pastor of this church, or whatever capacity, he is now advising openly, it appears here, that they use force to try to break up the convention, even break down the door, whatever that door is, the door of the amphitheater.

I do not understand that such an attitude is consistent with law and order and with an uplift movement in the community. I can't reconcile that.

Senator MUNDT. Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mundt. Senator MUNDT. I was reading this article during your colloquy with Lieutenant Buckney. It is a byline piece in the Chicago Tribune of July 3. The reporter is Robert Nolte.

There is something in here that disturbs me a great deal more than Reverend Fry's announcement that he expects to wreck the Democratic Convention.

As I said the other day, I don't like to see him interfere with the capacity of the Democratic Convention to self-destruction but here is something that is a little bit terrifying, I think.

Reverend Fry, pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, spoke to 120 Lutheran college students. He also predicted racial strife in Chicago this summer.

Here is the direct quote:
The city does not want the Woodlawn Organization and the Blackstone
Rangers to crush them, but I assure they will. It could come off this very weekend.

Now that looks like he is really talking about starting a race riot on the weekend of the Fourth of July in Chicago. This is what scares me because this is a big city where you have been struggling; being a patrolman during earlier race riots you know how fast such a thing could spread.

Here is a preacher who also says he is a legal beagle, who is the legal adviser of the colored people around him, and I don't see how you can read this without considering it an invitation to the colored community to riot against, apparently against city hall.

He goes on further. He told the students that:

There is an alliance between his church and the Rangers, with the Rangers having the upper hand.

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I think he was telling the truth then. I will repeat that. This is Fry talking. He can't say that some committee member is smearing him. He told the students that

There is alliance between the church and the Rangers, with the Rangers haring the upper hand.

I can't quite comprehend this. I want to ask you a question about this. You are a colored man, you ought to know whether this is true or not. Reverend Fry says:

Chicago Negroes live in garbage dumps and ghettos which were “spitefully" prepared for them by white government.

As a man proud of your race and your activity and your city, is that statement true or false? Are there garbage dumps in Chicago prepared by white people so that colored people can live in them?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I will state right here and now I don't live in a garbage dump but this is the kind of thing that deeply concerns us. This is the kind of problems we have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

As was testified by one of the officers yesterday, these threats of violence go back for a couple of years now and as a police officer in the city of Chicago, as a resident of the city, as a Negro, as a Presbyterian, I resent this kind of talk.

I submit that the gentleman has talked constantly of violence in a manner designed to keep the community in turmoil. He uses this as a stick to whip the community into line. Here we have lived under this threat for 3 years now.

I think it is about time that it came to an end. We have been through these riots and for a person to continually foster the idea, even as late as Sunday I think a comment along that line was made again, and I think if disorder should occur in that community in particular, then Reverend Fry should be held accountable for it.

Again a threat there, if you don't renew this grant there is liable to be violence. I am prepared to show before my testimony is through that in every utterance that this man has made he has talked constantly of violence.

Senator MUNDT. What disturbs me is that you have a situation in a great country like ours filled with every race and color, where there are some people who are disadvantaged and who live in poor communities.

We have this in South Dakota with the Sioux Indians. If we had a Reverend Fry out on our Sioux Indian reservations making provocative and inflammatory remarks like that he could probably renew the Indian wars because we have a lot of unhappy Indians. We have a lot of unhappy Scandanavians, Germans and Irishmen, Mr. Chairman.

But if in fact he speaks, as a letter in my office this morning indicates he does speak, for the Presbytery of the city of Chicago, and if he has the support of other clergymen and the bulk of the Presbyterian Church in these inflammatory comments, I think the city faces a serious challenge of insurrection which is advocated and discussed in public by Reverend Fry, according to this newspaper which modestly claims to be the world's greatest newspaper with a reporter by the name of Robert Nolte who must be a living human being in the city of Chicago covering Chicago affairs.

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Maybe Reverend Fry will deny he said all this, I don't know, but it is set in quotation marks. It is the only time we have had that kind of testimony before us about Reverend Fry.

If he were just one isolated, misguided or mischievious minister it would not be so bad, but it begins to sound like he speaks for the collective voice of the church in Chicago and this is a pretty disturbing thing because even 12,000 policemen cannot deal with an insurrection on the part of all the colored people in Chicago.

I used to feel perfectly safe walking down to the Alexis ball park down around the University of Chicago campus. That gets to be pretty close to 63d street. I had never a fear at all walking alone day or night down there. This is a comparatively new movement, apparently, this youth gang movement.

I never felt uncomfortable in the city of Chicago even when Capone was running loose out of Cicero. He was not going to hit a country boy from South Dakota over the head for four bits.

I wish the good people of Chicago—there are many, many times more good people in Chicago than there are people who are provocateurs—would take a good look at their city and what could happen.

The CHAIRMAN. I want us to move along and get into the testimony but I did want to say for myself and I am sure Senator Mundt will join me in it, that we do not, I do not believe that he speaks for the great rank and file of laymen in the Presbyterian Church.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I don't believe he does, either.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't believe he speaks for all the ministry, for the clergy of the church.

Senator Mundt. I don't think so either but I get a little bit disturbed when a preacher talks so loud and the laymen remain so silent.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to lead up to this: The laymen are not remaining silent. Here is a layman's publication for the month of June. They are not remaining silent. The Presbyterian "Layman.” They are not remaining silent.

Senator MUNDr. That is encouraging.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is a strong editorial “Nonevangelism." I am not going to place these in the record for the present because they are not sworn to but I recommend the reading of this paper, these two articles, one entitled “Keynote Speech by the Reverend Fry” in which the headline says “Fry Accuses Christians of Monstrous Crimes in PreAssembly Conference."

Here is the editorial of the Layman commenting upon that supposed sermon in which it says:

The name of God, of Christ, of Jesus, of religion was in no way mentioned in that supposed sermon, a sermon that was the opening of the Conference on Evangelism.

Very well, proceed with your testimony.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. One additional comment to what has been said. I think one thing should be considered.

The CHAIRMAN. The thing about this is that we have had ministers of the Presbyterian Church appearing here, all outraged, apparently supporting Reverend Fry. Some others came down and held a news conference out here trying to support Reverend Fry. That is their right and privilege.

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But that goes out all over the country. They should look at these statements he is making, the people should know about them. Here is a threat to the sovereignty of this Government if one of the two leading parties cannot hold a convention in the third largest city in the country without a threat and possibly an attempt, I don't know that an attempt will be made, but with a threat hanging over it from a source like this, from a representative of the church, of the clergy, agitating people to go there and wreck the convention. It is distressing.

I think the American people should know about it. This is the reverend who is the legal adviser to this gang, the father confessor, so to speak. They are in his church. He has given them headquarters there, they are there under his direction.

From this situation I don't think taxpayers' money should be spent to support a gang of youngsters living in an environment where they are getting that kind of instruction and that kind of training for their citizenship, their future citizenship in this country.

In other words, they cannot be good citizens if they follow that line of instruction and that line of training; they are bound to wind up as confirmed criminals and gangsters and revolutionaries.

Senator MUNDT. I do not want to prolong this but I had not seen this newspaper. Since I said, “The preacher talks so loud and the laymen remain so silent." I think I ought to apologize to the Presbyterian Layman because obviously they have not remained silent.

I want to read a paragraph from the editorial of the June issue of the Presbyterian Layman commenting upon Reverend Fry's preassembly conference address.

The chairman has read to you the headline by which the Presbyterian Layman called attention to the address. It says, "Fry accuses Christians of monstrous crimes in Pre-Assembly Conference,” at a talk in Minneapolis on May 15, it indicates.

Here is their editorial comment under the heading of "Nonevangelism," speaking of Dr. Fry at the Pre-Assembly Conference on Evangelism which was so devoid of evangelists:

Missing was any scriptural reference, mention of Christ or God or any spiritual inspiration. Not a word about any progress that had been made in race relations. Not a word about the vital role of evangelism in correcting injustice through a spiritual awakening of the individual.

No message of a hope or love. Nothing but a harsh and sweeping indictment of the white Christians for all the monstrous crimes against black people for which we would be judged not by God but by people such as Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael.

In the question and answer period a lady commissioner's impassioned effort to call attention to the need for becoming a personal witness for Christ was rebuffed by Dr. Fry as "pious idiocy for which we have no time in today's tragedy."

If he considers the Christian faith, paying witness to Christ, pious idiocy, I am kind of happy that he is just the legal adviser of the Rangers and not the spiritual adviser.

The CHAIRMAN. We have one identified here as spiritual adviser, Paul Martin.

I think you have advised us to the fact that you are a Presbyterian? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You certainly are not an enemy of the Presbyterian Church.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Most assuredly not.

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