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The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You may proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What I would like to do at this time, Mr. Chairman, is to present to you a brief overall synopsis of the gang problem as we have identified it in the city of Chicago.

I would like to state at the beginning, frankly, after 15 months we don't know all the answers to the problem. It disturbs us when the people who may run into the hearing for 5 minutes or read an article in the newspaper can all of a sudden become overnight authorities. on the gang problem.

When I look at statistics which have been provided to me by various agencies and I see in Woodlawn, for example, last year there were 114 or 115 shooting incidents of which there were 10 homicides, this is very disturbing.

It is disturbing because that is only one section in the entire city. When I run into the various other problems, for example, we have determined that money is probably the greatest single perpetuator of a gang problem. When you stop a member on the street and he is walking around with 20 $50 bills in his pocket and he is wearing $125 shoes and various things of that nature, you are not going to rehabilitate a person who is living that kind of life.

Those people who think that the police are picking on these poor, undernourished, misguided youth, this is not entirely true.

The Chicago Police Department, for example, will stand behind any program which is well planned, well conceived, and designed to help the youth of the community.

But we will also state emphatically that if anyone comes up with a program to the detriment of our community we will see that they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

That is what we intend to do.

The CHAIRMAN. At this point you referred to people who wear $125 shoes and have large rolls of money on their person.

Whom do you identify coming in that class?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The specific one that I had reference to was Eugene Hairston. David Barksdale has been arrested on several occasions, I think Commander Miles mentioned at one time he was in his station with $1,400 in his pocket. It was in the newspaper not too long ago when he was arrested he had $600 in his pocket.

On another occasion he allegedly had $2,000 in his pocket.

We know, for example, David Barksdale in 1 week bought three automobiles. They were not all brand new but they were paid for in cash. I remember the time when that gentleman was, as the gang mentioned, was so poor and raggedy that they took up a collection for him to buy him some clothes.

The point I am getting at right here is that money makes a big difference because if you have a well designed program, I think you can work with the children. But when money comes in and it was gotten through the illegal means that we have discussed here, you are not going to rehabilitate those kids.

I talked to Jeff Fort at 5 o'clock in the morning, the morning he was arrested for murder. Jeff told me, he said,

You know, I am a little sick of all of this, I am tired.

He says,

If I manage to get out of this I am going to get out of town. I don't want to see the rest of my brothers go through this.

He said,

I am lost, I don't know another way.

He had his opportunity but he never took it. He is right back in the same old thing.

I submit to you as long as that money is as free and easy as it is they will always be in it.

The CHAIRMAN. What money are you talking about?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Talking about grant money and the other illegal types of money.

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about the grant money coming from the Federal Government as has been testified to here along with the illegal money that they get from their other practices?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Most assuredly.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In addition to the money we have also identified a problem, I think you can readily see adult influence. From some of the things that I will eventually present you will see that adult influence has a definite bearing on the issue.

I think it was pointed out by the young gang member who testified yesterday morning that one of the things that they lacked was the adult influence and the adult leadership and the guy to go out and bring in the money to them.

This made a big difference in that gang. We feel, for example, if the Rangers were divorced from the First Presbyterian Church and from that kind of influence that the police could very well deal with them on the street.

But then the problem is fostered in other ways. As I have watched the hearing here and as I have seen in Chicago, publicity plays a great factor in the overall gang problem.

I think it is probably second to money in that respect. I can recall, for example, a national magazine, in fact, Life magazine inquired of the Rangers, they wanted to do a story, and again this points out the adult influence also; when the reply came back about doing a story, the Rangers said,

Sure, we will allow you to do a story but that story will cost you $25,000 in cash, it will cost you two percent of the gross receipts for the circulation of the magazine for that month, plus $120 a week for those people who will escort you through the neighborhood as bodyguards.

That kind of thinking does not come from the leadership in those gangs.

That is one incident.

I have an article which I will present to you that was written by Newsweek in which it depicted the Rangers as a group of top young executives. The article is entitled "Organization Men." It goes on.

For example, the Ranger troop has been mentioned previously as being a constructive effort on the part of the Rangers. It may well be. But I think people should know that by and large the Ranger troop that presented the new show "Opportunity, Please Knock," were not hard-core Rangers.

The great majority of them were Hyde Park High School students who were not really bad kids anyway.

But for them to go on the national television on the Smothers Brothers show and have the Smothers Brothers say that this was a reconverted street gang, which misled the entire American public, it is just not fair.

These are the kinds of problems that we have to fight. Because we come along again, we arrest a Ranger, the police are persecuting these poor kids who have made a complete about-face and are now constructive, useful members of the society.

On it goes. We have found, for example, the churches and ministers are very vulnerable to the gang problem. Again, this is a vital factor. Not too recently there was a group called The Jokers who were attempting to form what they called a Joker Nation. A VISTA worker was attempting to get them into a church in the second district.

This was disclosed and we were successful in keeping them out of the church but they have gone to other churches. As was testified the other day, the Rangers are operating out of three or four churches.

The whole point of the thing is that they are trying to find a church as a base of operation. I don't know whether the ministers themselves feel that they neglected the youth of the country and now maybe is the time to get into the battle, I just don't know but they get into it and they soon lose control of the program and then the police have to come and deal with the problem.

It brings up another point. Sometimes we have problems with what we term the ultra-white liberal who may get involved in the problem, has the best intentions in the world, but loses control of the problem and again the police have to come in and deal with it.

They exploit the people, they just don't know how to deal with it. This is one of the things that I often question in my mind regarding Reverend Fry. I can't honestly see, and I don't like to resort to the use of race, but as a Negro I cannot see where he is such a great authority on what goes on in the Negro community even though he works there.

He is not a Negro. I don't think he will ever be able to truly feel what a Negro feels about his community and about his life and his work and his family.

The mention of subversives has come up.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt for a moment. May I recall Reverend Fry has only been in that community 3 years. Is that correct? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Something to that effect. He certainly has not lived there all his life. He does not live in the community even right now. He lives in a very stable community, South Shore, which is integrated and is one of the better communities in the city.

The talk of subversives has come up. It has been intimated here from time to time that there have been attempts made by the subversives to get the Rangers to create destruction.

I might mention, for example, one night at home last summer, I received a call, a couple of my fellows asked me if I would be willing to come out and talk to Jeff Fort. They felt it was important.

I agreed to do so. We met him and we had a discussion. He claimed that he was concerned about the efforts of the black power groups to infiltrate and direct the Rangers. He mentioned that they had been offered, I think, the sum of $2,000 or something to that effect to, among other things, to paint the statue I think that is in Jackson Park all

black, to burn, I think, the boathouses in Jackson Park Harbor, and it was rejected.

This is one thing that for the most part I must give credit to the Rangers. Most of the gang, for that matter, have rejected these overtures from subversive groups.

But the point is that they are being made. We also know that in the case of many of the gangs when the price is right they may well become involved. For example, we know that there was a black power conference that was held at the First Presbyterian Church last summer in which John Fry escorted the people there.

It was pointed out to us that inquiries were made of the Rangers at that time. "How many people can you provide to help interrupt or disturb the Democratic Convention?" This was asked of Edward Bey. The CHAIRMAN. Last year?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct. This was a conference held at the church at which Reverend Cleage and various other members were there. At that time it was a rather secretive conference.

The CHAIRMAN. At what time last year did that occur?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Offhand, I don't recall.

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to establish how long he has had this project in mind to wreck the convention. Go ahead; when you find it you can insert it in the record later. It looks as if it is not a recent thing then from what you have said.

(The conference referred to was held November 10-12, 1967.)

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. Violence on his part has apparently been that way since he has been in that community.

Senator MUNDT. You mentioned another reverend.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Reverend Cleage was a very outspoken gentleman from Detroit who happened to be one of the participants in the conference.

There were a number of others of the same caliber.

Senator MUNDT. Outspoken.

Do you imply he was an agitator?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I would probably class him as an agitator; yes, sir. Although other people would not.

Senator MUNDT. Somebody from Detroit who came to Chicago? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. These people were from all over the country. Senator MUNDT. I see. A kind of national conference.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Before you go further, could you identify some of those black power people you mentioned?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. AS I indicated, I have a listing of the people who were supposed to participate.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you supply it for the record?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I certainly will. (See exhibit No. 207H.) Mr. DUFFY. Do you know they actually were in the church? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. According to the letters and everything that were sent out this is where the conference was held.

Mr. DUFFY. As to which specific elements were in the church at that time?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I think the list will indicate who attended. Another disturbing factor which has come out in the hearings and perhaps has been glossed over by some people is sometimes the involve

ment by the social agencies. Sometimes what you find, particularly with the passing out of money-and I want it clearly understood that I am not knocking any sort of Government program—but what I am saying is that sometimes and, particularly in certain areas, you will find a battle among agencies for the same kids.

If a kid is sharp, as I think it can possibly be shown in that area, he can get into one, two, three programs and find himself making $75 a week or something like that without working.

Then it has a bad effect on an incentive of the guy to get a job.

In other words, you have an agency that suddenly has money and says, "Look, kid, I need you in my program." You have another guy who says here, “Look, kid, I need you in my program," and another who says, "Look, kid, I need you in my program." These kids are not dummies.

I have a case in my file here where one kid had a job. He was making $70 to $75 a week. It did not take him long to figure that by the time they took his deductions for income tax and everythingI think as I recall he got a net income of $59 a week but he had to work 48 hours. So he says: "This not for me, I can go to the TWO program, for example, and make $45 a week without doing anything." So he quit his job and enrolled in the program.

We sometimes run into problems with politicians.

Senator MUNDT. That ought to be OK. Politicians are in lots of trouble with people sometimes.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. As I will indicate in some of the material that I have, just as an example in Monday's Sunday Times when we were flying out here we saw where apparently Senator Percy had become an overnight authority on gangs.

He had mentioned he had talked to Jeff Fort about 3 years ago and he thought Jeff to be a very bright young fellow and indicated he ought to pursue politics as a career rather than gang violence.

It disturbs me in this sense because it gives power, status, recognition to these fellows and makes it difficult for us to deal with them.

As I said earlier, we don't know the answers to these problems. It makes it difficult for us when somebody comes up and overnight has a solution.

Senator Javits, for example, was in Chicago at this hearing that he mentioned the first day of the proceedings.

I would like to mention it at this time. There were no police representatives called to that meeting until late in the afternoon so that the testimony that was given, there was certainly no police portion to bear on the issue.

But during that time as the article in Newsweek will indicate, the Ranger leadership was invited down to the Bismark Hotel for lunch with the Senator.

Now I can understand the Senator in that respect

Senator MUNDT. Do you mean Eugene Hairston and Jeff Fort? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I don't remember who it was. The whole point of it is, I can understand attempting to get to the grassroots level. But unwittingly they don't realize the problem that it creates for us in trying to deal with the problem.

There were representatives sent there. The Rangers stood them up, that kind of thing. This is well publicized. At one point, the publicity

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