The CHAIRMAN. Did Fry ever come to you and ask you to arrest anybody for violating the law?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. He never came to me and asked me to arrest anybody.

The CHAIRMAN. I asked the other policeman. Did he ever do anything to help the law-enforcement officials?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Not to my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. All there has been is an attack on constituted authority and trying to encourage them to be lenient with these people who are committing crime and to trust them to enforce peace in the community. Is that right?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. He testified here that he had arranged or that they had arranged, he and the church and the Rangers and all of them together had arranged, some 200 bonds for people to get out on bond like this rape case here.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. He also testified that the majority of the cases in which he raised bond was for disorderly conduct. I think the record will indicate that most of the cases in which bond was actually provided was for serious offenses.

The CHAIRMAN. For serious offenses such as this one?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether the party is guilty or not, but he is very active in trying to help those who are arrested and charged with crime. They have a right to proper defense and a fair trial and fair treatment. But society also has some rights. With the amount of crime going on there in that community, it seems to me one seriously interested in law enforcement would have some occasion to go to the officers and try to cooperate with them and try to be helpful in ferretting out those who are guilty of crime in order to aid the officers in performing their duty and meeting their obligation to protect society. I am trying to find out if ever, in any instance, whether he did

that or not.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Not to my knowledge, sir. There is no policeman that I know of that has ever indicated he ever did.

The CHAIRMAN. You have never been accused of it?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Not to my knowledge.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In document No. 9 there is an additional statement, and I call your attention to paragraph No. 4 (reading): When asked about the beating in the First Presbyterian Church on Friday, 24 November 1967

And this is a conversation that occurred with the gentleman, Thunder

He stated there was someone beaten but this happened before his group went to the church. Thunder thinks this might be because of the grease-gun found by the janitor in the basement at 69th and Stony Island. Also, when he was asked who is paying for all the bonds and legal counsel for the Ranger leaders, he stated that Rev. Fry and the church is paying for any Ranger that is in the main “21” who gets into trouble. Thunder stated that he does not know why they are doing it and it seems very suspicious.

If you recall in previous testimony it was indicated that there was great concern over the fact that this prized grease-gun had been apparently left out.

85-779-68-pt. 12

The CHAIRMAN. They found a grease gun. What is that?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It is sort of like a machinegun.
The CHAIRMAN. It is a rapid fire gun?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. They call it a grease gun?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir. I might mention some of the things that never came out. It was indicated to us that Reverend Fry, himself, was beaten by the Rangers, Chuck LaPaglia was beaten by the Rangers. It was reported to us, for example, that Chuck was beaten so badly on one occasion he had to take off 2 weeks from work. The CHAIRMAN. Who?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Charles LaPaglia.

The CHAIRMAN. He had been beaten by the Rangers?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is the information that was given to us, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not convincing proof when you just have information on it. Do you have something stronger than that?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Again, this is a matter of conversation. The source is an unimpeachable source that reported the incident. That is the only thing I can say about it.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Move on.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Moving to document No. 10, this is a report of a shooting. If you go to the third page of this document, in a statement that was given to the police, in indicates that:

We, "Butch," Teddy, Thomas and myself left the Church at 64th and Kimbark and were going to my house. We were walking North on Kimbark from 64th Street and when we reached the corner of 62nd and Kimbark a boy passed me going east on 62nd Street and he called "Blackstone."

There was some exchange there and shortly after that these gentlemen were shot. The important part of this is a couple of pages over. One of the fellows who was shot, it was not discovered he was shot until he was giving a statement in the police station at 91st and Cottage Grove.

They asked why he didn't realize he was shot. His companions and he indicated he was so drunk from having drunk two pints of whisky that he had no knowledge of the entire incident.

The report indicates that they had just left the church where they had a dance.

The CHAIRMAN. His defense was that he was so drunk that he didn't know what he was doing?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right. He was so drunk he didn't realize he had been shot until the police began to interrogate him.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The next document, No. 11, I think should be perhaps read primarily in its entirety.

The CHAIRMAN. That is quite lengthy now. Do we have to read it all?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I do want to make a point

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. Let us leave that one out for a moment. That is some material that does not belong in this record. It has already been filed as an exhibit.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 12 is an incident which occurred around the church. One of the important things that it indicates was that

during the course of this incident a gentleman whose name came up in the conversation, a William B. Conover, was arrested for disorderly conduct and interfering with the police.

He was the gentleman in the document that made a study of the Rangers and turned in a 4-hour tape and indicates that Charles LaPaglia was transporting the fellows to a particular incident where they were having a big meeting at the church, and it was alleged to be a strategy meeting where they were going to create an incident in the Times Square Ballroom. I might, in fact, add that an incident did

occur.

The CHAIRMAN. I see you have a report here on February 21, this year, 1968, that is No. 13.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The report at that time, according to this, was that "Edward Bey assessed members of the Rangers $10 for the purpose of purchasing weapons."

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN (reading):

The acquisition of weapons reportedly was for the purpose of knocking out the formation of the new Joker Nation and to continue the war with the 'D's' since several Rangers had recently been attacked."

All right. Go to the next one. No. 14.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. This is a rather lengthy document. The only comment I will make on that is that this is one incident which shows you remember there was testimony that came up regarding— in which Reverend Fry indicated he had no knowledge of anyone running away, hiding in the church, or anything of that nature.

This record indicates, commencing with the third paragraph: "Derek stated that he learned from youths who had attended a meeting held last Saturday"-I am sorry. I beg your pardon.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. It is in the record as an exhibit. Proceed. No. 15.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. This was a series of interviews which we conducted with members of the Rangerettes. As is indicated in the report, you can see the people who were present at this meeting. As a result of that meeting, the following comments came out regarding some of the activities around the church. It indicates that there are facilities for socalled honeymoons at the First Presbyterian Church. These honeymoons are alleged to be part of the initiation rituals performed by prospective female gang members with male members, that young female adults 21 to 25 were soliciting teenage girls for sexual activity by male gang members in their apartments; teenage prostitution during school hours, especially during lunch hour; teenage girls were seen entering and leaving hotels in the company of male adults in the Woodlawn area; and various sorts of activities which, contrary to the testimony presented, was indicated that does occur in that setting.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That is pretty rotten. Let us leave it where it is.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In document No. 16, the issue arose about bringing youths from other areas into the program. It was a point of argument in this particular meeting which was a community meeting. They indicated that there should be an investigation on the idea that youth were being brought in from outside the Woodlawn area to participate in this particular program.

The CHAIRMAN. This one that I have just referred to along with all of these now that you have been testifying about are reports made to the police or information reports that they got at the time or about the time these reports are dated?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. These reports were all prepared before you ever knew that there would be this investigation or this hearing or anything?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is quite true.

The CHAIRMAN. These are copies of reports that are actually on file, that were actually made to the policemen in the performance of their duties?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is very true, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The information in here is what they reported as a result of their investigation or information they had from witnesses? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The next is a rather lengthy report.

The CHAIRMAN. No. 17?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 17. This again was an indication where one of the gang members indicated they were required to kick back $10 a week from his salary to finance Ranger operations.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it has been established that they kicked back $5 out of each paycheck. Isn't that right?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It actually varied, sir. Depending on the situation now. In other documents I have with me, you will find toward the end of the program, when there was a great deal of force or thought to get certain Ranger leaders out of jail, that they confiscated the whole checks.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, while $5 was the original and stipulated agreement, at different times that fluctuated, went up higher because of the urgency of the need of money by the leaders?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. To bail themselves out or to bail out other members, to defend them, one thing or the other, buy weapons or whatever the occasion was?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Proceed to 18.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. As you can see, this is along the line of one report you just mentioned a moment ago about some of the activities around the church.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. It is in evidence as an exhibit. You may proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I made an error a moment ago on one of the other reports. This is the one that I thought was the one on the missing person.

The CHAIRMAN. No. 19?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 20 is the one where the lady went to the church to find out if her son was hiding out in the church. She mentions there that she did talk to Reverend Fry

The CHAIRMAN. Now you are talking about No. 20?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say the other one where you made reference to this you were mistaken?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I was mistaken. I thought that was the runaway incident. As you can see here, I believe he testified that he had no knowledge of such situations. According to this report, the lady did talk to him. He said he would take care of it. Within a short time the child returned home. He indicated he had been hiding out in the church.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. That takes care of 20. Now what about 19?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 19 was the report that I indicated was on the subject that I took you to mean a moment ago that was not particularly necessary to discuss regarding sexual activity around the

church.

The CHAIRMAN. This corroborates other testimony that we have received about sexual

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Regarding sexual activities around the church.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed. That one is dated February 28, 1968.

Number 21.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 21 is a report which indicates that in interviewing a student at Hyde Park High School, who would prefer not to state her name, that she indicated they had overheard several girls talking about a woman called "Ma Rose" and that Ma Rose gave male members of the Rangers different types of pills in the church. I think there was a report there not mentioned, but I think Ma Rose, as you recall, was Ma Rose Shelton who was one of the ruling elders of the church who was also a member of the Teenage Education Committee. This is also the woman who is alleged to

The CHAIRMAN. All right. No. 22. What does that refer to?

I assume 22 and 23 are self-explanatory.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I didn't have a 22 or 23 marked in mine. The CHAIRMAN. Very well, then they are not in the record. Someone suggests they are up in the front of your work.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Reports dated May 15 and May 27.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. 22, this is a report that we received through a very confidential source, again about the guns stored in the church, and the concern by this individual of the consequences of having those guns and that sort of thing in the church and in that area. The CHAIRMAN. That is May, a month and a half ago? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know then you were going to testify? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I certainly did not. We had no idea whatsoever that this would ever come about.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed. In other words, none of these have been prepared in connection with this hearing. These are your permanent files of your department that were created and records made before you ever knew about this investigation?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.