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Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The final report here is one which was turned in by

The CHAIRMAN. Number 23?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. May 27?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right.

It came from the Third District which corroborated information or it was another story on information we had previously received and that was the Reverend Fry had made two trips to Skokie, Ill., and on each occasion he had purchased two machineguns.

The CHAIRMAN. That has not been established as a fact?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No, it has not. But there were three reports that came in to the police department almost identical.

The CHAIRMAN. I want that to be filed as an exhibit. I don't want to do Reverend Fry an injustice, but it will go in here for the committee's information as an exhibit. From time to time we may refer to that in asking questions in interrogation of others, or him, if he comes back to be further interrogated, to testify further in this matter. So we will hold them in the record in that way for the present.

Exhibit 11 I am going to withdraw for the present and keep it in the file of the committee without making it an exhibit. I don't want any accusations made that go pretty far unless there is something to substantiate them. I understand accusations can go both ways. You have a perfect right to answer Reverend Fry.

The records that are being received are to corroborate or to show that in the performance of your duties, before you ever knew this hearing was to come along, these records were compiled and were made and they are permanent records in the files of the police department?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Some of the charges in there are not substantiated. There is no further proof other than you got a report of it.

Proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Mr. Chairman, I think those were the documents that were picked out for discussion this afternoon. As we have gone through them rather hurriedly

The CHAIRMAN. We have and I am going to permit you to testify and make any comment you wish and go into whatever aspect of it that you care to. Maybe the staff has some questions here to ask you. If we read all of those in detail, every word in there, we would be here pretty late.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I didn't have that intention, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. You hit the highlights of them as you went through. Now anything that you want to add to your testimony here, any aspect of it, you may proceed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. At this time I did not anticipate that we would go quite as quickly, I would like to defer because we have made arrangements for the staff to review the rest of the material and have the copies ready for you Monday, or whenever the hearing resumes.

I would like at this point to allow them to do that unless there are some questions that the committee would like to ask me at this point, I have nothing further to say this afternoon.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

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I think it is better in view of the nature of it that this material be placed in here as exhibits of records that are now in the police department. There are things in there, charges in there that maybe could not be substantiated. Maybe some of them are untrue. They are reports to the police department, but they serve to show, if these are true, that you got such reports and they were enough to alert you and to warn you as law-enforcement officials that there was something there that possibly needed your attention.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is very true. What we were trying to show as you indicated, to corroborate some of the testimony that has been presented prior to this particular presentation.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. Lieutenant, having heard your testimony about these documents and having gone through them pretty fast, the plethora of reports about these serious, unsavory, and illegal activities in the church would certainly tend to justify—I should think, compelthe police department to try to verify them or disprove them.

My question is: On the basis of all these reports and other reports, rumors, observations that your group had made, how many times have you actually been able as a gang intelligence unit to get into the church by subpena or by raids or in any other way in order to have personal observations on behalf of the policemen of the city of Chicago?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. To my knowledge, sir, there has only been on very rare occasions have the men actually been in the church.

One of the reasons for that, there have been times, based upon the information which we have, that we had been inclined to want to raid the church, in discussions with the State's attorneys and various other ones, it was felt that a church is a sensitive area, and that we did not want to run any risks whatsoever of incurring ill feelings with the church.

Senator MUNDT. I can understand that.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What it boils down to, you almost have to have a perfect situation, which is unlikely to ever occur. You run into a situation where you may have a very reliable informant who will tell you what happened, what is going to happen, that sort of thing. But you run into difficulty under the law of taking that informant in and getting a search warrant. This is one of the difficulties.

We prefer not to chance one of those situations and be accused of picking on the church or harassing them or doing something that was illegal and unjust.

The CHAIRMAN. You are already accused of that. Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Well, that is very true, but this one situation where we felt that we had to be within the law on each and every step so that it would not create a monstrous situation where everyone would be embarrassed and ill feelings would occur on both sides.

Senator MUNDT. I was just wondering because I can see exactly your position as you have stated it. I can recall many long years ago when I was, for a while, acting chairman of the House Committee on Un-American Activities. There are ways in which you can get information without exactly getting a search warrant. People have to make inspections for fire conditions. You might have to have a boiler inspected in the church or a gasoline or electrical connection.

It seems to me that there are ways that you can really get some people in there to have a look-see for yourself.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The only thing I was thinking of, some of these things have been gone over very thoroughly. In our judgment, we have not hit upon the ideal situation where we could do these things without serious repercussions, particularly in view of the factyou see, again, one of the problems we face in Chicago is from the police standpoint of view and the church's standpoint of view, and to be very realistic about the whole thing, I think it is clearly shown so far as the testimony that there are two completely different stories.

The church has always had the advantage of a minister speaking for them, and I think truthfully in an open confrontation the public would tend to side with the church rather than with the police.

This is one of the handicaps that we have had to fight. That is why we get very, cautious in dealing with the church because we didn't want to be in a position of being accused of overtly harassing them and abusing them.

Senator Mundt. I think the presumption of innocence is always attached to the church.

In my own mind the conditions are pretty incredible from the standpoint of the activities of this church. For that reason it seems to me with all this great, continuing line of informants, frightened people who come in and won't tell you their names, who tell you these hairraising stories, as they accumulate, they naturally would be very disturbing to the law-enforcement officials. Verification is the thing that we need and you should need in your department.

There was one occasion I think you testified to, or somebody did, that a legal search warrant was obtained and the police officials did go into the church for the purpose of bringing out those guns. You were not a member of that group that went in?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. No. My group had not been formed at that time.

Of course, again, that was an ideal situation because you had an inventory listing; there was exact knowledge of what was in there. You see, these are some of the difficulties in the law that you run into because the law specifies that in order to get a search warrant you must particularly describe the place to be searched, the things to be

. Generally you have to have, in the case of an informant he must go in and testify to what he saw. Sometimes this is a disadvantage to you because you expose your informant. Sometimes people will tell you these things, but they, themselves, will say:

Look, that is it, I am through, I am not going any further. I am not going to have anybody shooting at me. I am not going to be intimidated or threatened or have my life in jeopardy through my telling you something about these gangs.

This is one of the very real problems we have to deal with.
The CHAIRMAN. Let us get down to this matter of the Federal grant.

You have given a lot of the circumstances there, the crime situation and the problems you have and the police have dealing with it. You have refuted the charges against your department. Now what about this program!

We have heard a lot of testimony about it. As far as I can find, up to now there is no testimony showing any results other than about a

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hundred or some 83 of the 400 or 500 that took part in the program, some 83 of them got employment.

As I recall, 39 were still employed as of May 31. I had remarked on that basis, and this is not an exact calculation, that it was costing the Federal Government more than $11,000, practically $12,000, to get each one of these people a job. That would be the 83.

But if you placed it on the basis of the 39, the cost is some $15,000 for each one to get him a job.

I want to ask you now, on the basis of the money that has been expended and from your position in the police department, what you have been able to observe. Has this program contributed anything to the uplift of the community, to the improvement of the status of these young people?

I say young people. I am talking about those who are in this gang, the Rangers particularly?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In my judgment it has not.
The CHAIRMAN. Has it improved the enforcement situation?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It has not. In fact, it has made it more
difficult.

The CHAIRMAN. Made it more difficult?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that also true with respect to the Disciples?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. This is true, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't think the police department was consulted about this program to begin with; was it?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY, It was not consulted directly; but I have a series of documents with me which led into the grant.

Again, we had heard a disturbing amount of rumors that the gangs were going to be given a huge sum of Federal money. We became very concerned as to where this money was coming from. One of my investigators contacted the regional office of the Office of Economic Opportunity and carried on discussions with that office. This is when we first became aware that there was the possibility that a grant would be issued to the group. This is where I indicated earlier that they had incorporated themselves preparatory, apparently, to receiving this grant because it was rumored at that time that the money was going directly to the gangs, and this was the reason for their incorporation.

As it turned out, this was not the case. As a result of this inquiry, there were some meetings arranged with Mr. Bernstein at the regional office which we participated in and which set the preliminary discussions about the grant at which time the police department stated its viewpoint which resulted from the discussions there. I have those documents with me.

The CHAIRMAN. Submit them to the staff so that the staff can examine them in the next day or two and we can see which of them, if any, are pertinent.

Did the police or the city authorities oppose this grant in any way?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. They most certainly did. In fact, the then Superintendent O. W. Wilson, and I don't have the document to prove it but Reverend Brazier has indicated many times that the superintendent told him that he would not approve.

The CHAIRMAN. He would not approve?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right.

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The CHAIRMAN. That is the superintendent of police?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir; that was 0. W. Wilson.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether you can testify as to the reasons why the police did not approve it.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is a part of the prepared portion of my statement. There were a number of reasons.

The CHAIRMAN. I have some notations here that the Chicago Police Department voiced objections over the proposal from the outset. The department felt--now, if you can't testify to this, say so, and I won't proceed any further—(a) the proposal tended to strengthen the gang structure, thus making it more difficult to break up the gangs.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. This is a statement I prepared for submission to the committee, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. So, you can testify to this?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that the true situation ?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It certainly is. I think from the testimony so far it indicates that the structure was enhanced and created additional power, status, and that sort of thing, and made the gang very difficult for the police to deal with.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the Federal Government made a grant and turned it over to them to run as it apparently was. As someone said, it was run by the Woodlawn Organization, but I haven't observed any supervision from the Woodlawn Organization so far. Maybe it will be developed.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The only basic supervision we saw was one individual who went through four centers as a supervisor. That was Sol Ice. I don't believe from what we have seen in the reports that will later substantiate it that that kind of supervision given, one guy in four centers, certainly is not sufficient.

The CHAIRMAN. That the program tended to reward miscreant behavior and thus would influence other gangs to increase in criminality. What would you say has been the result of it so far?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. One of the problems that has occurred as a result of this grant is that several other gangs, it has led to a lot of violence and other planning on the part of other gangs to do the same thing. We had the same situation in Inglewood where a recruiting drive went on and a lot of people were beaten, shot, intimidated on the basis that if they consolidated into one group they also could obtain a Federal grant.

The CHAIRMAN. If they became a powerful gang like the Rangers, they could get a grant.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is true. It was indicated in various reports that the forming of a joker nation as indicated earlier was also the same idea in mind. On the West Side of Chicago right now, the vice lords are working out also a Federal grant in which there was a gentelman there by the name of

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if they have an application in for a Federal grant or not?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. To my knowledge, they do have. They have written a proposal and the fellow who wrote the proposal was a former OEO worker who is leading and writing the proposal with the idea that if it is granted he will stay on as the director of the project at $900 a month.

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