The CHAIRMAN. If he can get a project through, he can be a director at $900 a month?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Another reason was that this would increase the rivalries and jealousies between the two groups. Has it done that? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It certainly has.

The CHAIRMAN. They claim that it would make peace between them? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. There was never any peace to begin with. If you go back to the original document, this so-called truce that has been talked about or alleged truce, in previous testimony, if you read the wording of it it was never a truce in the beginning.

All they ever called it was an understanding. The understanding was that they would not resort to arms in any future conflicts. The CHAIRMAN. They would not?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. They would not.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a kind of truce if they had been resorting to arms beforehand.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Well, again in my opinion

The CHAIRMAN. You could call it a truce, if they had been shooting each other and decided not to do it, came to an understanding of it.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In the general context of the grant, itself, in the earlier discussions in talking to OEO officials they said one thing, if the violence resumed the grant would be terminated right then and there, which never occurred. The reports will show that the shootings in Woodlawn were going fairly high in January, February, and March. In fact, the last murder occurred on the 28th of March. Then there is a diminishing of the shootings down until only one the day the grant was issued. Shortly after, they began to spiral upward so in the latter half of the year there were more shootings than there were in the first half of the year.

The CHAIRMAN. They cooled it until they got the grant?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Again, this is one of the things that happened. The word went out, "Keep cool until this grant is issued." They did a pretty good job of keeping cool.

The CHAIRMAN. There is some quotation in here, "Sit back and get all this Federal money."

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Right. Once they got it, the dissatisfactions set in. When the jobs started to be passed out and various things like that and they saw what was going on, and again one of the vital points of the whole thing, this was something that had never been done by any other gang and it was a model for the rest of them. As a result of this, they are all now presently trying to get efforts underway to get themselves a grant.

The CHAIRMAN. They have all set their sails to try to get theirs, too. Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say here the bonus arrangement would possibly lead to intimidation, beatings or even recruiting from the schools. What do you mean by "bonus arrangement"?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What we were afraid of, the grant states that for each individual who is recruited into the program the recruiter would get a bonus of $5 for each one that he signed on the program.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the grant state that?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The grant authorizes a $5 bonus payment to anybody who recruited someone into the program?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct.

It also indicates that he would be paid an additional $5 for each. 1 think 5 weeks that the person stayed in the program with 90 percent attendance. We kind of felt or we were afraid-I will put it this waythat that kind of arrangement would lead to strong-arm tactics to enroll people into the program and that it might very well lead to a situation where it would draw people out of the public schools into the program because, let us face it, in an area where there may not always be money, if a kid can get $48 a week for going to school, then why should he go to a public school for nothing?

These were the kinds of problems we were afraid of. This is why we felt it was not a good idea to approve the grant.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, this would be in competition with the public schools?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And those who were doing the soliciting, these Rangers they have testified to the tactics they used-they resort to those strong-arm tactics to compel the folks to join, to attend the school in order to get the money?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir; that is what we were afraid would happen.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the grant-I don't think it does-provide for a kickback to the Rangers?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. It certainly does not. This, again, was one of the things that we were afraid might well happen which it has been indicated has happened. You see, again, there were some peculiar things about the grant. It specifies a period of training for the subprofessional leadership.

I cannot accurately say this but I do not believe that they went through any extended period of training. Again, the idea I think very possibly could have worked, the two-track idea with programed instructions. I think the big hitch in it was the fact that again where you have a dropout teaching a dropout, programed instruction is a good way of instruction if it is used correctly but there had to be a period of training.

I think what happened to TWO was that there was a great amount of discontent about the fact that there were no jobs available. I think they had to do something to ease the pressure and they went into the program faster than they were prepared to do.

When the program was issued, to my recollection there were no sites picked out or acquired. For example, the program talks of various jobs and it indicates that private industry, they would consult with various ones but it never once mentioned that they had a commitment from anybody to provide

The CHAIRMAN. That was approved and money made available before they even had any centers, any place to do their teaching or training: isn't that correct?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it was testified here that it was some time before they got a center.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. That is true. It originally started out-you see, I had intended to go into the whole history of the things a little bit later on in the hearing because there were a number of things that happened.

When the original grant went through, it was specified only for members of the Rangers and the Disciples. This is the information that I have on it. Because of our discussions, it was changed to the indigenous youth of Woodlawn which in effect did not really say anything because in that area the majority of the kids there were all gang members anyway. In effect, it was only for gang members. The CHAIRMAN. The reason you give here is the gang leaders and members were not competent to administer such a program.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Again, I think when you go back to someone such as Jeff Fort who dropped out of school in the third grade or something like that, how in the world can a man of that caliber teach even a sixth grader? How can he administer a program?

The CHAIRMAN. He was to administer the program as a center chief, whatever that is?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What kind of administrative ability could a man who cannot read and write have other than strong arm?

The CHAIRMAN. That is the only qualification.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In my estimation, that is the only qualification he had.

The CHAIRMAN. Reverend Fry said he had love and compassion in his soul and so forth, respect from the community, and that made him a good teacher.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Well, to each his own. There is no possible way I can believe anything like that. That is-I won't use the word that I think aptly describes that kind of

The CHAIRMAN. Well, don't.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I won't.

The CHAIRMAN. The next thing is that no one individual or group could control them to the extent that the program would be beneficial. Has that proven to be true?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir. We found in the very beginning and fellows like Barksdale and Hairston and Jeff in private conversations will tell you, "Look, we cannot control every one of these guys and we know that and they know it." To us, it was a fallacy to think that one guy or one group such as TWO or the First Presbyterian Church or any other group could control each and every one of those members. They just can't do it because, as was shown after the money started to come out, then you had the group start to splinter because of dissatisfaction over how the choice jobs were passed out.

For example, there was always dissension between the East Side Disciples and the Inglewood Disciples. One of the resentments was the fact that David Barksdale, and again this was a violation of the TWO grant, was brought from Inglewood to Woodlawn to work, I think as an assistant project director. This created animosity. In other words, some of the Inglewood fellows were moving the Woodlawn fellows out of some of the top jobs.

The guy through this dissatisfaction would splinter off and form his own neighborhood group and go to war. This is why we say they could not, one side or one group, could not control all of them. It just does not work that way with these gangs.

The CHAIRMAN. On the basis of your testimony and what you know about this grant that was made and the results from it, from the experiment that had been had in Chicago under the direction that it has had, the character of supervision and character of personnel that are employed to administer it, would you recommend that another grant be made for the same purpose? I understand an application is pending.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I certainly would not. Not on the basis of the way this program, the results of it and how it was administered, and that sort of thing. I certainly would not.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions, Senator Mundt?

Senator MUNDT. Whom do you look to in the Chicago area as the real main head of the project? Is that Sol Ice you talked about?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. As I understand, he was the main supervisor. The administrative head of the program in my understanding is Reverend Brazier.

Senator MUNDT. What I am trying to find out is who in Chicago is considered by the OEO office in Washington as responsible for what takes place in this project? Is that Reverend Brazier?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Reverend Brazier, to my knowledge, sir. Senator MUNDT. He would be the head man so far as the training project, the OEO project, or youth uplift project, whatever you call it, is concerned?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. Responsible for appointing those who are the supervisors, project directors, and instructors, people of that type? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. In all probability he probably conferred with the leaders and they decided upon who would be slotted into the various positions.

Senator MUNDT. The leaders of the gang?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. He would be the one who would have to okay them before they could get on the Federal payroll?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator MUNDT. An interesting case in the witness sheet involves Melvin Bailey, William Troop, and Leroy Hairston. Are you familiar with that report? I will read you part of it.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What is the number of that report, sir? Senator MUNDT. It is the witness sheet prepared here by the staff which I presume is built on the testimony you gave. It is shown on page 3 under item No. 8 (1). It says:

On March 8, 1968, police officers observed Melvin Bailey, a paid community worker in TWO Center No. 2, along with William Troop, an instructor in center 2, and Leroy Hairston, as assistant project director in center No. 2, in the poolroom located at 67 and Blackstone during the hours from 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.

When officers inquired why they were not in school, they replied they were not instructing because they had chipped in and hired an assistant instructor, name unknown, to conduct their classes for them. Thus they were free to do whatever they wanted.

An examination of the time sheets for Bailey, Troop, and Hairston show that they were all signed in from 9 a.m. to 12 noon on March 8, 1968. This is police report No. 3.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. What was your question, sir?

Senator MUNDT. The question is whether you are familiar with that report and whether you know that this is the report which was filed with the police department?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, there is a document which is being presented for the record to this effect. It was determined by my investigators who personally observed this violation of the agreement.

Mr. DUFFY. We have checked the TWO records against the police report. We find out they were signed in for those dates and were paid for those dates even though they were not in the center as indicated. Lieutenant BUCKNEY. This is quite a common practice, I might indicate, from the reports that we have received. In fact, the fellows used to mention from time to time that every time you went by one of the centers to make an inquiry or something, or just casual observation, the fellows were always on their lunch hour or they were always on a break or they weren't there.

In the report this particular witness sheet will indicate that the fellows were instructed not to appear unless the man was coming or the word was out to be there or that they could sign the timesheets on Friday and get paid for the whole week, and that sort of thing.

Senator MUNDT. We had some testimony that this took place among the Disciples. It came from one of the witnesses who has left the Disciples. So I wondered what was the general practice.

It would seem to me that is certainly a falsification of the record, obtaining Federal money under false pretenses, and at best would indicate there was very little supervision of the project or the supervisor would have discovered that and stopped that.

You say it is a rather common practice?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir. In fact, the following case is also an indication.

Senator MUNDT. The case involving Kenneth Harris is of the same type?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes. You know it is a rather flimsy excuse, he told the officers he is absent from school because a friend failed to give him a ride. He said that his pay isn't affected when he is absent because he does not sign the attendance sheets daily, as he is required to do, but signs all his attendance sheets on Friday.

Harris said as long as he signs the sheets on Friday he gets paid. He also said the class session consists of discussions of posters on bulletin boards and discussions of newspaper clippings about gang activity. I think that is one of the things Mr. Dorenzo testified to yesterday. Senator MUNDT. I understand you, or those associated with you, have compiled a list of similar instances of falsified timesheets in these

centers.

If you have them, I think they should be filed with the subcommittee as an exhibit.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. They have been or are being filed with the committee.

Senator MUNDT. Is that the tabulation you prepared?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.