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Senator Mundt. May that be made an exhibit, Mr. Chairman, so that we will have it available? The CHAIRMAN. Very well, make it Exhibit 208.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 208" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further? The committee is going to recess until 10 o'clock next Tuesday morning.

(Whereupon, at 4:15 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Tuesday, July 9, 1968.)

(Members present at time of recess: Senators McClellan and Mundt.)

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TUESDAY, JULY 9, 1968

U.S. SENATE,
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10:28 a.m. in room 3302, New Senate Office Building, pursuant to Senate Resolution 216, agreed to March 15, 1968, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Members of the subcommittee present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, of Arkansas; Senator Edmund S. Muskie, Democrat, of Maine; Senator Fred R. Harris, Democrat, of Oklahoma; Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, of South Dakota; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Republican, of Nebraska; and Senator Jacob K. Javits, Republican, of New York.

Also present: Jerome S. Adlerman, general counsel; LaVern J. Duffy, assistant counsel; John J. Walsh, investigator; Dr. Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel; Philip W. Morgan, chief counsel to the minority, John Brick, investigator; and Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

(Members of the subcommittee present at time of reconvening: Senators McClellan and Curtis.)

The CHAIRMAN. When we recessed last week we recessed until 10 o'clock this morning. We have been in session since 10 o'clock, in executive session. It took a little longer than we anticipated.

Call your next witness.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Doyle and Mr. Houtsma.
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Gentlemen, you have both been sworn, have you?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, sir.
Mr. DOYLE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Be seated.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HOUTSMA AND JAMES DOYLE-Resumed
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed with your questions, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Houtsma, will you state your title and what you are doing at the present time?

The CHAIRMAN. It has already been stated for the record, has it not?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, sir, it has.
The CHAIRMAN. Repeat it briefly.
Mr. HOUTSMA. Deputy superintendent, Cook County Jail.

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85-779_-68--pt. 12

Mr. ADLERMAN. Previous to that time had you worked with a gang intelligence unit of the Police Department of Chicago?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, I did.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you work principally with the Blackstone Rangers and the East Side Disciples ?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, I did.

Mr. ADLERMAN. During Lieutenant Buckney's testimony certain reports were placed in the record which disclosed that the attendance records based on which the gang members were paid were falsified.

Are you acquainted with those records!

Mr. HOUTSMA. I am acquainted with the records that Lieutenant Buckney placed in the record last week, yes, I am.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you visit these gang centers?
Mr. HOUTSMA. On many, many occasions.
The CHAIRMAN. Pull that mike a little closer.
Senator MUNDT. Did you say on many occasions or rare occasions!
Mr. HOUTSMA. On many, many occasions.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Doyle, did you visit the gang centers also?

Mr. DoYLE. Yes, sir, Mr. Houtsma and myself were partners. We visited them together.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You were a partner or team.
Mr. HOUTSMA. For over a year.

Mr. ADLERMAN. When you visited these gang centers did you have an opportunity to observe what took place in these gang centers?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, we did.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you at any time observe the instruction being carried on, teaching the so-called students, writing, reading, anything of that sort?

Mr. HOUTSMA. At no time when we were in the centers did we observe any studies.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you describe what you did see in your own words?

Mr. HOUTSMA. On one occasion, I think it was in March of 1968, we were at the center at 6758 Stoney Island Avenue. We had occasion to go there. We wanted to interview Bernard Green who at that time was the center chief.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a Blackstone center?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, it is.

The center was over a store on the second floor. When we went upstairs, as we walked into the center there were only eight youths present. Three or four of them were play-wrestling on the floor, monkeying around. There were two of them shooting dice. We asked to speak to Bernard Green but he was not on the premises.

The CHAIRMAN. You did what?

Mr. HOUTSMA. We asked to speak to Bernard Green but he was not on the premises at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. What position did he hold at that time?

Mr. HOUTSMA. At that time he was the center chief and instructor at the center.

The CHAIRMAN. He was supposed to be in charge of that particular center?

Mr. HOUTSMA. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. What time of day was it?
Mr. HOUTSMA. It was approximately 9:30 in the morning.

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The CHAIRMAN. What hours were they supposed to have school?

Mr. HOUTSMA. To our knowledge, school was supposed to run from 9 until 12 and from 1 until 3.

The CHAIRMAN. How many were supposed to be in that center at school?

Mr. HOUTSMA. At that time we didn't know but later on, checking the records, we found out there were supposed to be 65 present.

The CHAIRMAN. Sixty-five present and how many were actually present at 9:30 in the morning ?

Mr. HOUTSMA. There were eight students present and one instructor.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Proceed.
Mr. DUFFY. Senator, could I interrupt at this point.
We took the police report to TWO headquarters and checked it out.
We found out that 65 individuals registered, signed in on Friday,
March 8, 1968, and were paid accordingly,

The CHAIRMAN. Just a moment. Has this been placed in the record ?
Mr. Duffy. It has been an exhibit placed in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. What exhibit is it?
Mr. DUFFY. 208.
The CHAIRMAN. What is this, a report from whom?
Mr. Duffy. It is a police report from Sergeant Doyle and Detective
Houtsma, dated March 11, 1968.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you gentlemen make this report?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes.
Mr. DOYLE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you make it at that time?

Mr. HOUTSMA. We did not have occasion to return to the office that
day. Monday morning when we returned to the office we submitted a
report right away.
The CHAIRMAN. It was made within a day or two afterward?
Mr. HOUTSMA, Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What date is that?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Eleventh of March.
The CHAIRMAN. What date of the week was that?
Mr. HOUTSMA. On Monday. That is when we submitted the report.
We had visited the center on the Friday previous.

The CHAIRMAN. Was Friday a schoolday, a day they were supposed to teach?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes; it is.
The CHAIRMAN. They were supposed to teach 5 days a week?
Mr. HOUTSMA. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. Five hours a day?
Mr. HOUTSMA. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. From 9 to 12?
Mr. HOUTSMA. And from 1 to 3 in the afternoon.
The CHAIRMAN. This is one instance this year when you went there?
Mr. HOUTSMA. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Give us any other occasions.

Mr. DUFFY. These are the 65 timesheets we secured from the office of TWO indicating they were signed in on those dates, 65 individuals, including Bernard Green.

The CHAIRMAN. Have these been made part of the record ?
Mr. DUFFY. They have not.

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The CHAIRMAN. What have you presented to me?

Mr. DUFFY. Presented to you timesheets for 65 individuals that were signed into the center, Center No. 1, for the week ending March 15, 1968.

The CHAIRMAN. This is just for 1 week?

Mr. DUFFY. One week. You will notice on Friday they were all signed in from 9 to 12 on all 65 sheets. The CHAIRMAN. These 65 sheets represent 65 different days. Mr. DUFFY. Sixty-five individuals. Each one signed a sheet. The CHAIRMAN. That may be received as exhibit No. 209.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 209" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. As I understand you, Mr. Duffy, these are the official records.

Mr. DUFFY. These are the official records obtained from the TWO headquarters.

The CHAIRMAN. Showing that they purportedly had signed in that day.

Mr. Duffy. On Friday; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that the date you were talking about, Friday,
March 1?

Mr. HOUTSMA. Pardon me, Senator?
The CHAIRMAN. What is the date?
Mr. HOUTSMA. March 11 is the date.
Mr. DUFFY. Friday, Senator, is March 8.
The CHAIRMAN. What does the report show with respect to March 8?

Mr. DUFFY. It shows they were all registered in on Friday from 9 to 12, 65 individuals, 65 trainees.

The CHAIRMAN. Were registered in. You found eight trainees there with one supervisor or instructor.

Mr. HOUTSMA. That is correct. Mr. Duffy. Bernard Green also signed in on Friday from 9 to 12. The CHAIRMAN. How long did you remain there? Mr. HOUTSMA. We remained in the center talking to Adam Battiste who was there, until 10 o'clock. When Bernard Green still had not arrived at the center, we left.

The CHAIRMAN. Was any instruction being given to those who were there!

Mr. HOUTSMA. No, sir; Battiste was also being paid at that time as instructor. He stayed with us the whole time. The eight trainees were doing whatever they wanted to.

The CHAIRMAN. Čan you corroborate the statement he just made?
Mr. DOYLE. Yes, sir.
Senator CURTIS. I want to ask a question.

Was there any evidence that instruction had taken place before you arrived and was interrupted merely because you were there?

Mr. Doyle. No, sir. In fact, as we were coming in, three or four of the boys were walking up the stairs at that time, at 9:30.

Senator CURTIS. In other words, the things you observed indicated that there had not been any instruction going on before you got there?

Mr. DOYLE. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You can verify that?
Mr. HOUTSMA. That is correct.

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