Reverend BRAZIER. It is referred to as the MDTA coupled program. The CHAIRMAN. MDTA? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Coupled? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, coupled. The word "coupled" indicates we have brought together two components into one program. Institutional training which means that a person gets training in some kind of school The CHAIRMAN. Is this program operated there in the same community? Reverend BRAZIER. It is operated in the same community. The CHAIRMAN. What is its function? Reverend BRAZIER. Its function was to reach out into the community, to gather the hard-core unemployed, place them into institutional training in the midway technical institute, give them supportive help, place them into on-the-job training situations. This program has been one of the most highly successful programs funded by the Labor Department. The CHAIRMAN. How long has it been operating? Reverend BRAZIER. It has been operating now approximately 2 years. The CHAIRMAN. Two years. Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. It has been operating simultaneously with this other program? Reverend BRAZIER. Part of the time. The CHAIRMAN. Was it a successful program? Reverend BRAZIER. It was a successful program. It is viewed by the Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training officials as a successful program. The CHAIRMAN. Is it supported by the Federal Government? Reverend BRAZIER. The Department of Labor funds through the Bureau of Apprenticeship and Training. The CHAIRMAN. How much has been granted to it? Reverend BRAZIER. The total grant components was $1,900,000. Reverend BRAZIER. In the same community. The CHAIRMAN. Covering the same general purpose of providing jobs? Reverend BRAZIER. Covering the same general purpose of providing jobs to the hard-core unemployed and others in the community. The CHAIRMAN. These you call hard-core unemployed-what do you mean by hard-core unemployed? Reverend BRAZIER. We mean by hard-core unemployed, people who for various reasons have become dejected and depressed, who have been out of a job for many, many months, who do not respond to advertisements or public relations programs as they relate to jobs, who have primarily quit looking for jobs, some of them. Many of them have been on welfare for many years. The CHAIRMAN. The so-called Rangers, Blackstone Rangers, are their members eligible to participate in this program? Reverend BRAZIER. Some of them would be eligible, and I think some of them probably would not be, depending on the age qualifications. I am not sure. The CHAIRMAN. Your program provides for 18 years and over, does it not, this $1,900,000 program? Reverend BRAZIER. I referred to it as an adult training program so that might be the case. The CHAIRMAN. Does this program carry with it any teaching? The CHAIRMAN. It carries with it teaching, too? Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. What kind of instructors did you have? Reverend BRAZIER. Professional instructors. The CHAIRMAN. Was there any reason why the hard-core Rangers could not attend this school? Reverend BRAZIER. Many of them did. The CHAIRMAN. Many of them did? Reverend BRAZIER. That is my understanding. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know? Were you supervisor? Reverend BRAZIER. I was not the project director, but my project director indicated to me that there were members of the Blackstone Rangers who made themselves available to this program. The CHAIRMAN. Some 700 were enrolled there, I believe. The CHAIRMAN. Were there some 700 enrolled in that program? Reverend BRAZIER. I am not in a position to say how many were enrolled. The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how many finished the program? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. I think the total component called for 660; 550 on-the-job training and 100-plus-no, 550 would have institutional training plus on-the-job training and 100 go straight into on-the-job training. My understanding is that we have placed on jobs probably over 400 of these people. The CHAIRMAN. According to the witness sheet I have here, you may be correct, some 370 out of the 430 graduated were placed on jobs. Is that substantially correct? Reverend BRAZIER. That may be, Senator. I don't know. The CHAIRMAN. Forty-eight percent of these trainees apparently were male and 52 percent females; is that about right? Reverend BRAZIER. I can't say because I am not the project director. I did not come armed with the information about that project. The CHAIRMAN. Since you mentioned what your organization is doing, I wanted to see if you did not make a success in this project, which apparently you did. I want to find out why, if you made a success in this one and it was going well, why you needed another one. Reverend BRAZIER. Yes; but when you quote figures and then ask me is that right, I am somewhat hesitant to say yes, it is right inasmuch as I do not exactly know. The CHAIRMAN. I am not trying to trip you with any figures here. I am just using this, which is just as favorable as what you were testifying to, as far as I understood you. I was asking if these are substantially correct? Reverend BRAZIER. I would say substantially; yes. The CHAIRMAN. In the program that was set up by the Rangers and the Disciples, what was the primary purpose of this program? Reverend BRAZIER. The primary purpose of the program was to see if we could in some way encourage the youth in our community to become involved in more constructive activities. We had noted on many occasions that efforts made toward breaking up the gang structure, the so-called gang structure The CHAIRMAN. I did not understand you. Go ahead, say it again, please. Reverend BRAZIER. You will have to ask me that question again, Senator, because you are breaking my train of thought. Once I get started and I have to go back again, you will have to ask me the question. The CHAIRMAN. The reporter will please read the question. (The question was read by the reporter.) Reverend BRAZIER. The program was designed basically, Mr. Chairman, to try to make some changes in the behavior of the youth groups within our community, to turn them to more constructive pursuits. We had noted that efforts made to break up so-called gangs merely through police action or merely trying to win a youth away from a gang was never successful. The CHAIRMAN. In that connection I know a lot of blame is being put on law enforcement officers. Reverend BRAZIER. I beg your pardon, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I know a lot of blame is being put on law enforcement officials. I am not absolving any of them from all the blame. In that connection what did the organization do to cooperate with the law enforcement officials in the enforcement of the law? Reverend BRAZIER. One thing we did to cooperate was that I met with Commander Griffin at a time when tension was high. I said to Commander Griffin, "Commander, our newspaper, the Woodlawn Organization newspaper, will not print any more stories about police brutality. We will bring to you every case that we get as it relates to police brutality. We would like for you to deal with every case that we can document. That is police brutality, we would like you to deal with it effectively and see to it that the policeman who is involved in such an activity will be properly punished, but we will not add fuel to the flame by printing any more cases of police brutality." That was one area in which we sought to cooperate with the police. There was another effort in which we sought to cooperate with the police. Senator MUNDT. Did you ask Commander Griffin if that was a good idea? Reverend BRAZIER. He agreed. He said yes, he thought that was a good idea. Senator MUNDT. You had a meeting of minds as to that solution? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. On another occasion shortly after or during the Detroit riots, youth of both the Blackstone Rangers and Eastside Disciples informed me that some individual had flew in from Detroit and that they were concerned about his purpose. I phoned Commander Griffin and told him of it. Commander Griffin asked me if I could get the name. I returned to the youth and asked him if they could supply me with the name. A day or so later they came back and gave me the name and I phoned the name in to Commander Griffin. In other word, Senator, the Woodlawn Organization has cooperated with the police in the third district. We have always felt that the police in the third district were on amicable relations with the Woodlawn Organization. The CHAIRMAN. What I am trying to ascertain is the reason you seem to blame the law enforcement officials for the rise in crime and everything that goes on. Reverend BRAZIER. I never sought to blame them, Mr. Chairman. What I said was that police activity failed to break up the youth or ganizations in Woodlawn. I am not saying they are responsible for crime. I am just stating a natural fact, that the activities of the gang intelligence unit was almost useless in breaking up these youth organizations. That is a natural fact on the record. The CHAIRMAN. We can go further than that and say with all the law enforcement effort throughout the United States crime is still rising by 17 percent annually. The point is that if you go back and say the police can't do it, the next question is: What are we doing to help the law enforcement officials in enforcing the law? Reverend BRAZIER. I think this project, Senator, was one of the things. The CHAIRMAN. How did this project help enforce the law? Reverend BRAZIER. One thing this project did was for long periods of time we had hundreds of youth off the streets and in training centers. They could have been just milling around on corners, shooting craps, maybe getting into gang fights, maybe breaking windows. But we had hundreds of them in centers. This was one thing that helped the police. The CHAIRMAN. We had some testimony this morning to that effect, that these instructors and people who were supposed to be teaching instead were down in the pool halls playing pool during the school hours. When officers went into the centers, where there were supposed to be 65 people taking training, there would be eight people present and the rest were gone. I didn't know, these officers may be coming in here and deliberately perjuring themselves about it. If they are not, then something needs explaining about this so-called training. Reverend BRAZIER. Let me explain that, Senator, to the best of my ability. The CHAIRMAN. If you know. Reverend BRAZIER. I said to the best of my ability. If these police officers had cooperated with the Woodlawn Organization and said. "We are going over to such and such a center," we could have been helpful. They never informed us that they were going to any center. The CHAIRMAN. How could you have been helpful? Reverend BRAZIER. My point is this, Mr. Chairman: I am answering your question. You asked a direct question. They went to the centers. They said they only found eight people there. How do they know that the rest of them were not on a tour at a factory? The CHAIRMAN. They went on downtown and found them in the poolroom. Reverend BRAZIER. They did not find all of them in the poolroom. You said they found one or two. This is something that plagues everybody. We read in the newspapers where building inspectors of the city are supposed to be inspecting buildings, and they are found in a tavern. We have newspaper stories all over the place where city payrollers are supposed to be out working when they are leaning on shovels. No one can say that everybody is going to do everything he ought to do all the time. The CHAIRMAN. Reverend, let us get down to the facts. The question is-I know you can always find somebody else did something wrongbut the point is that we have a program that the Federal Government is financing. Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. It is supposed to be a training program. The CHAIRMAN. Where we are training people to get jobs. The CHAIRMAN. And also trying to give them some basic education. You did not include that in your purpose of it, but I understood that is a purpose. Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. To give them some basic education and to train them to get jobs. Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. We were paying the trainees $45 a week each to take 5 hours' instruction a day for 5 days a weeek; is that correct? Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. And travel expenses, if it was more than four blocks away, of $3 a week? Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. Now with that arrangement, and they are supposed to be training in this job, with that small length of time, and being paid to do it, we would expect them to be at the center, the place where they were getting instruction. Reverend BRAZIER. I think the vast majority of them were. The police said they went into a center. They only found eight. The police cannot substantiate that they found the other 65 in the poolroom. We are saying we took these youth out The CHAIRMAN. I see you want to defend it. Do you say they were there when the police said they were not there? Reverend BRAZIER. This is what I say, Senator: I say that when the police go into a center without authorization-now the police do not have any authority to walk into private property when they get ready. We never bothered the police about that. They had no search warrants. They never followed the rules of law. They walk in. The CHAIRMAN. You mean when a public place is open, they have no right to walk into it? Reverend BRAZIER. This is not a public place. The CHAIRMAN. Aren't schools a public place? Reverend BRAZIER. Not necessarily. The CHAIRMAN. Is not the Federal Government paying for it? Rev. BRAZIER. Let me make a point. We had six mothers who was found guilty of trespassing because they were in a Chicago public school, paid for by taxpayers' money. I don't understand how it is six mothers can't go into a public school but the police can walk in whenever they get ready. I am not arguing against the police. All I am saying is when they walked into the center and they found eight people instead of 60, it was their duty to call up the Woodlawn Organization and say to us, "You |