I am not defending anybody's bad conduct and I never will. Reverend BRAZIER. I wanted to clarify he was not arrested for something he did. The CHAIRMAN. How do you know he did not? Reverend BRAZIER. The police dropped the charges. The CHAIRMAN. They also say they dropped them because the witnesses were intimidated. Reverend BRAZIER. I am not arguing with the police. The CHAIRMAN. I am not, either. The point I am making is that the man was on the payroll. I said he got in trouble. You say he got arrested and put in jail. Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. You use your term. He got arrested and put in jail. Then he was dropped. Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. How long after he was in jail? The CHAIRMAN. Immediately he was dropped? Reverend BRAZIER. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. Then you had another one that was over him in this organization. His name was Hairston? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. I wouldn't say he was over him. They were sort of equals. You mean over him in the project? The CHAIRMAN. Well, he was an assistant project director. Reverend BRAZIER. He resigned. The CHAIRMAN. He resigned? Reverend BRAZIER. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. When? Reverend BRAZIER. He resigned in September. Mr. DUFFY. When he was arrested. Reverend BRAZIER. Resigned before he was arrested. Mr. DUFFY. That is not what the record shows. Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know what the record shows. I was project director and I know he resigned. Senator CURTIS. Was he convicted? Reverend BRAZIER. He was convicted of some crime. The CHAIRMAN. What crime? Reverend BRAZIER. I think it was solicitation to murder. I think that is what it was. But I want to make the point, Senator, that when Eugene Hairston was arrested he was not a member of the project because he came into my office and said, "Reverend, I am resigning". He could not have been in jail because he said it in my office. You see, I know. The CHAIRMAN. The record will show what time he went off the payroll and what time he was arrested. Reverend BRAZIER. Right. The CHAIRMAN. They will substantiate the facts with respect to that. Senator CURTIS. May I ask something about that chart? You have identified the center chiefs? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. Under the word "center chief" there is the word "instructor." Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. Senator CURTIS. I believe I understood you to say that that did not mean one individual. The center chief and the instructor are not the same person. Reverend BRAZIER. They are not the same person. Senator CURTIS. Who are the instructors?" Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know that I can name them. I can submit the names to you. I will supply the names of the instructors. Senator CURTIS. Does the chart indicate there were four instructors? Reverend BRAZIER. There were five instructors for each youth, two in one center and three in the other. Senator MUNDT. Your chart should show instructors. Reverend BRAZIER. It should show instructors instead of instructor. Five for the Blackstone Rangers and five for the East Side Disciples. Senator MUNDT. Twenty, all together? Five times four? Reverend BRAZIER. No. There were 10 instructors. Five for the Rangers and five for the Disciples. Two instructors were in one center and three in another center, two in one center and three in another center. Senator CURTIS. When you supply those names, will you supply the names of all those who served as instructors any time during the life of the project? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, we will supply those names. (The information requested follows:) TWO YOUTH PROJECT INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS EMPLOYED FOR ALL OR PART OF FISCAL TWO YOUTH PROJECT INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS EMPLOYED FOR ALL OR PART OF FISCAL YEAR 1967-68-Continued BREAKDOWN SCHEDULE OF ACTUAL EMPLOYMENT DATES FOR INSTRUCTORS AND ASSISTANT INSTRUCTORS EMPLOYED BY THE YOUTH PROJECT DURING THE FISCAL YEAR Senator CURTIS. Where did Reverend Fry fit in that chart? Reverend BRAZIER. He does not. Reverend Fry had nothing to do with this project. Senator CURTIS. Now I think I understand something but I want to be sure to get it straight. Senator MUNDT. May I ask, is Reverend Fry a member of either your steering committee or your house of delegates? Reverend BRAZIER. I am not sure as to whether Reverend Fry is a member of the steering committee or not. I am not sure. I don't think he is. Senator MUNDT. Or the house of delegates? Reverend BRAZIER. He may be a member of the house of delegates if his church elected him to be a delegate for his church, he may be a member I am not sure. I would say Reverend Fry is an active member of the Woodlawn Organization because his church is a member of TWO. I am not trying to say Reverend Fry is not a member of TWO. He is. Senator MUNDT. I am trying to find out if he has any relationship whatsoever to the project. Reverend BRAZIER. None other than what any other member of TWO would have as a member of TWO. The only relationship was that we rented a part of the third floor in Reverend Fry's church for one of our centers and that is all. Senator CURTIS. I think I understand this but I want to be sure. Your Woodlawn Organization is a larger communitywide organization that in the area serves about everybody that belongs, is that right? Reverend BRAZIER. It is the only community organization in Woodlawn. Senator CURTIS. Everybody may belong, is that right? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. Any block club. Senator CURTIS. It is broken down into blocks? Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. Only groups can join. Individuals cannot join. Senator CURTIS. Only groups? Reverend BRAZIER. Only groups like block clubs, churches. Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. Senator CURTIS. And get in. Now, how long has that existed? Reverend BRAZIER. Since 1961. Senator CURTIS. It has a wider jurisdiction and a wider activity than this particular project of the OEO that this committee is inquiring about? Reverend BRAZIER. Absolutely, Senator. We are not just interested only in this. We only got interested in this because of the magnitude of the problem that presented itself to us, Senator, in 1966, when there was no project for any of these youths, nothing was going on. The city did not have any project, 85 percent of our buildings in the community is marked up with names of the various youth groups. No one would do anything with them. There was not a single program in our community to deal with this particular problem that was really a tremendous problem. It was such a great problem, Senator Senator CURTIS. The reason I wanted the record made clear is that the Woodlawn Organization was larger in scope both in membership and geography and activity than this particular project. Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct. Senator CURTIS. I have been present, not for all the testimony but substantially all of it, and I cannot recall any significant critical testimony of the Woodlawn Organization. The critical and damaging testimony, if true, was not directed at the overall Woodlawn Organization or of you so far as I can recall. Reverend BRAZIER. Senator Curtis, one of the things that disturbs me The CHAIRMAN. I would like to impose there. I think subject to this one interpretation of the testimony that there would be criticism and frank criticism of the organization for lack of adequate supervision of this project. Reverend BRAZIER. That would be implied. But there is another thing that bothers me, Senator, and that is that the charge is coming out of the Chicago Police Department that our organization was trying to build a black Mafia. I think that is a disgraceful charge. I think that is a disgrace. Senator CURTIS. No one has said that here. Reverend BRAZIER. I think I have seen that in the record somewhere where we were charged with trying to build a black Mafia. We ought to search the record out. I think that is a disgraceful charge to be leveled against an organization of God-fearing people, mothers and fathers, hard-working people. For the police to be saying we are trying to build a black Mafia, I think is a disgrace. The CHAIRMAN. I have not heard anybody say that. Reverend BRAZIER. Somebody said black Mafia. The CHAIRMAN. Somebody said the Blackstone Rangers was moving in that direction or likely to become a young Mafia. Reverend BRAZIER. I think a lot of people are thinking we are trying to build one. If I can look at the testimony I think that ought to be clarified. The CHAIRMAN. You have clarified it, something was in the record to begin with. What they said was that these Blackstone Rangers was moving in that direction of becoming a young Mafia. Reverend BRAZIER. I think that is a police interpretation, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. It is their interpretation. Reverend BRAZIER. I think that the vast majority of all those youths in the Blackstone Rangers will never become black Mafia criminals. I don't think we should label all these youth criminals. The CHAIRMAN. You may disagree with them. But the testimony here some of them may not have committed a crime, I don't knowbut there is a lot of testimony here about crime having been committed by them. Reverend BRAZIER. By certain individuals. But to label the whole group as a criminal gang I think is unfortunate. Certainly there are people |