Senator MUNDT. It was quite possible for him to stand by your desk on a bail bond.

Reverend BRAZIER. He just got out of jail a few weeks ago, Senator. He could not have stood by my desk then.

Do you understand what I am saying? My testimony is clear. I am making it clear now. The man resigned. If I said anything about suspending you know it was inadvertent. The man resigned.

Senator MUNDT. That straightens out the testimony. Through inadvertence you had it wrong.

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. What I may have said was I may have said to somebody after I read of his arrest, "Are you sure? Be sure that gentleman is suspended from the payroll or his pay is cut off.

"Make sure this happens. Make sure that the record shows that we cut him off immediately."

Senator MUNDT. You accepted his resignation at the time he made it?

Reverend BRAZIER. Definitely. He was adamant.

Senator CURTIS. May I ask: At the time he stood by your desk and said that he resigned were you at that time in possession of information that there had been an unlawful killing with which his name. had been associated?

Reverend BRAZIER. Definitely not.

Senator MUNDT. Do you know whether this is true or not? We have had testimony that Mr. Hairston and Mr. Fort while on your payroll were also on some payroll of Reverend Fry's organization.

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know whether that is true or not.

Senator MUNDT. I don't know whether the testimony is true or not, either.

My question is whether or not you expected them to put in a full day's work for whatever salary you paid them?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes. We expected that.

Senator MUNDT. Five days a week?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to ask you if you know about another shooting in one of the centers.

Reverend BRAZIER. I am aware of that, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make an investigation of that?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. My project director was there when

it happened.

The CHAIRMAN. He was there when it happened?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was your project director there?

Reverend BRAZIER. Anthony Gibbs.

The CHAIRMAN. Did the police make an investigation of it?

Reverend BRAZIER. I think they did.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they go there at the time?

Reverend BRAZIER. The police?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Reverend BRAZIER. I think they did.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you recognize pictures of the place?
Reverend BRAZIER. Of the place?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes; I would.

85-779-68-pt. 12-9

The CHAIRMAN. Hand him that and ask him if that is a picture of it, please. Reverend

BRAZIER. Yes, sir. I just wanted to get a vertification. That is a picture of the office.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a picture of the office. Where is that located? Reverend BRAZIER. I think that was in center 4, 866 East 63d Street. The CHAIRMAN. It was center 4?

Reverend BRAZIER. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know who took that picture?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't know?
Reverend BRAZIER. NO.

The CHAIRMAN. But you recognize it?

Reverend BRAZIER. This would appear to be the office of center 4. The CHAIRMAN. I present you another picture and ask you if you can identify it?

Reverend BRAZIER. I can't identify that, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Call around the officer who took the pictures.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Spellar.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. You have been sworn, have you?

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD SPELLAR-Resumed

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir; I have.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you connected with, what official position?

Mr. SPELLAR. I am with the State's attorney's office of Cook County as an investigator, detailed there from the Chicago Police Department. The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been in that position? I think you have already testified but some of the Senators were not here.

Mr. SPELLAR. I have been with the State's attorney's office since April of 1967 and with the Chicago Police Department since March 1946.

The CHAIRMAN. 1967. Did you take the picture there that has just been identified by the Reverend Brazier, the one showing the inside of an office?

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir; I did not take the picture. The Chicago Crime Laboratory technicians, this is their function.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you took the picture.

Mr. SPELLAR. No, sir; I did not.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you make an investigation of a shooting out there at that center?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir; I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you there when the pictures were made? Mr. SPELLAR. I was in the building. I was not with the photographer when he made them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you recognize the scene as it appeared there that day?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir; I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You were there at the time the picture was made of the scene in the building?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. For the purpose of doing what?

Mr. SPELLAR. The pictures were taken for the purpose, as in all cases involving a serious shooting, it is a processing system of the Chicago Crime Laboratory technicians.

The CHAIRMAN. It is part of your investigative techniques. You went there to the scene of the shooting?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. These pictures were taken by another officer who was in your company at the time?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you identify both pictures?

Mr. SPELLAR. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The first one is the one that has been identified by Reverend Brazier, it may be made exhibit No. 216A.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 216A" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. You have the second picture there in your hand which I showed the Reverend.

Will you now identify that picture?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir; this picture was taken just off to the rear room of the office depicted in the first picture which is the office of David Barksdale and Minjo Shead, frequented by Joseph Evans, the victim of the shooting.

The CHAIRMAN. Do these rooms join?

Mr. SPELLAR. They join by means of a partition, sir, which is open at the top.

The CHAIRMAN. There is just a partition between them?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there an opening from one room into the other? Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. These pictures were taken in the two rooms at the time you investigated this killing?

Mr. SPELLAR. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean the shooting. He didn't die.

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what the second picture shows.

Mr. SPELLAR. The second picture shows a pile of rubbish inclusive of old newspapers, milk cartons, and various cans, Schlitz beer cans, champagne bottles, Richards, Wild Irish Rose wine, and numbering, if I may be allowed, sir, about 17 items in the alcoholic family.

The CHAIRMAN. What did you find in any other family?

Mr. SPELLAR. There is also a bottle which, incidentally, my partner who at that time was William Corbett, and it is the cough medicine of which I have heard testimony here by Mr. Dorenzo as having been drunk

The CHAIRMAN. Dorenzo, the man who was second in command of that organization of the Disciples has testified about keeping these things, that they were a part of their operation, is that correct?

Mr. SPELLAR. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Now you found this there on the day that you went to investigate this shooting?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When the pictures were made up?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by cough sirup?

Mr. SPELLAR. To me cough sirup is cough sirup, Senator, as depicted by Mr. Dorenzo it was used as a means of obtaining a false kick such as induced by various narcotic methods along the line of marihuana.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it a narcotic?

Mr. SPELLAR. It is a narcotic content.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it have in it?

Mr. SPELLAR. It has codeine in it, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. He has testified that they used it a great deal.
Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that in instances they brought it in large containers. You heard him testify to that?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now this picture was made before you ever knew that there would be an occasion like this?

Mr. SPELLAR. That is correct, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is what you found there at the time?
Mr. SPELLAR. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Let that be made exhibit 216B.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 216B" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. I will ask you, Reverend, if any of your people have inspected these areas to find out whether anything like that was going on in these centers.

TESTIMONY OF REV. ARTHUR BRAZIER-Resumed

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir. I think that the area that is being described here was back in the garbage disposal area in which there were other groups who were using this area.

I am not trying to throw off on anybody else. I am not trying to say that the youth in this center did not on some occasions use this cough sirup to drink.

The reason that you see that rubbish there was because of the neverending problem that we had of getting private scavengers to come and take the garbage away. I am not saying that these youths never used that.

I am saying that as far as my knowledge is concerned and as far as my staff people have told me, they never observed any whisky drinking or any Robitussin in the centers.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand this is a part of the center.

Reverend BRAZIER. Where you saw the rubbish?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Reverend BRAZIER. That is where there is garbage disposal. Is it part

of the building, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did they have the whole building?

Reverend BRAZIER. We just had the first floor.

The CHAIRMAN. Was this on the first floor?

Mr. SPELLAR. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. So it was part of the building that you had.
Reverend BRAZIER. It was part of it.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't deny that?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. A number have testified from both gangs about this marihuana and about being in the business of peddling marihuana and about their having these parties where they got high on this Robitussin and things like that, including Dorenzo who was the vice president of the Disciples.

Now this testimony tends to corroborate what they have been saying. Reverend BRAZIER. But they were not doing that in our center, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that not one of the centers?

Reverend BRAZIER. They had no part in our centers, to my knowledge. They had their own places to go to have parties. There were no parties, marihuana-smoking, Robitussin-drinking in our centers. The CHAIRMAN. I understood this was a center.

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, but just the fact these bottles were on the floor does not indicate there was widespread marihuana parties going on in our centers.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it indicate?

Reverend BRAZIER. It indicates that maybe somebody did take a drink of Robitussin in the center. I am not sure where all those bottles came from. Everybody who used the building had access to that area. I am not sure all of that was there.

I am not denying the fact that somebody may not have taken a drink of whisky in our center like they take a drink in public schools and smoke marihuana in public schools.

I am saying that centers should not be characterized where they were centers of pot parties and Robitussin parties. It is not fair to characterize our centers like that even though it is possible that some one individual may have done that at some time or another.

The CHAIRMAN. If just one individual did it you would be correct but if a number of individuals did it and it was done repeatedly as has been testified to here, how else would you characterize it?

Reverend BRAZIER. My staff people, who traversed through those centers constantly, back and forth, do not indicate that.

I have affidavits here to substantiate the statement that say they have never seen any of this.

What I am trying to say is that we have a population that we are dealing with here that you are not going to have 100 percent cooperation, everybody doing everything nice, everything going along beautiful and swell.

We knew we were going to have problems with this.

The CHAIRMAN. If you knew you were going to have problems with it why didn't you have better, closer, and more effective supervision? Reverend BRAZIER. Because this was one of the features we were trying to demonstrate. We were trying to find out how these youths react when responsibility is given to them.

Now we found out to some degree the reaction when a great deal of responsibility is given.

The CHAIRMAN. You have given them the responsibility, nobody questions that. Would you regard this as a part of their reaction? Is that what you are trying to find out? You say you want to find out how they react. The testimony has been with respect to both gangs that this is what they engaged in in these centers.