Reverend BRAZIER. I would say this, Senator: There may be some testimony that didn't come forward, I don't know. What I am saying is that my staff people say that they never saw any marihuana parties, they never saw anybody gambling in our centers.

Now they were in there more than the policemen who say that is what they saw. You know, I am surprised, Senator, that a policeman can come in and say, "I visited those centers 20 times and I saw gambling, I saw marihuana smoking," and this policeman never called up the Woodlawn Organization, then never wrote us a letter and said, "Reverend, you have this illegal activity going on in your centers." This is almost beyond belief that responsible police officers would observe this going on and never contact the people involved. It is incredible.

If they did do that, they were not performing their duty that they should have. They should have closed the centers down. Why didn't they close the centers down if they found pot parties, Robitussin drinking? They did not close it down. Nor did they contact anybody, nor did they tell us it was happening. This is almost beyond belief. The CHAIRMAN. It may be beyond belief

Reverend BRAZIER. I can't understand why these policemen did not come and tell us this was going on. What happened to them?

The CHAIRMAN. Apparently it was so obvious they found you were bound to know. Everybody else knew it, apparently, but you. The people in the gang knew it, apparently, their leaders testified they knew it.

They were here admitting they were engaged in it. Not only that but saying under oath, one from each gang, the second top man in each gang here saying under oath that in order to get the money to do these things they required a kickback from the trainees whom the Federal Government was paying to go to school.

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, you know that could not be true because a lot of youth were doing a lot of this before there was even a program.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't doubt it. I am not saying they learned it there.

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know what Mr. Rose said he saw. Mr. Rose was not a part of this program.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about Mr. Dorenzo.

Reverend BRAZIER. In his testimony Mr. Dorenzo said they were doing things they were not supposed to do and was contrary to the rules of the Woodlawn Organization.

The CHAIRMAN. If they were engaged in that as extensively as he said probably supervision would have discouraged it.

Reverend BRAZIER. Mr. Dorenzo came here to testify because we had him arrested. Mr. Dorenzo was arrested.

The CHAIRMAN. Who had him arrested?

Reverend BRAZIER. The Woodlawn Organization, a few days before he came up here.

The CHAIRMAN. Arrested for what?

Reverend BRAZIER. For cashing a check that wasn't his. When he got arrested all of a sudden Mr. Dorenzo comes up here now as a great outstanding citizen testifying against the project.

The CHAIRMAN. He is your citizen. You selected him. You put him on the project.

Reverend BRAZIER. The reason we did that is because we knew Mr. Dorenzo had problems. We understood he was an individual who needed help and who needed to help himself. We did not feel that we were out helping a lot of choir boys. They were not choir boys. We were not teaching them Mendelssohn, Beethoven, and Bach. We were dealing with the toughest population in the city.

I want to talk about some of the positive aspects of this program that are not coming out. We are talking about marihuana and pot and all of that. We are not getting down to the facts.

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to wade through this to get to that.

Reverend BRAZIER. There is a lot of good that happened to this program.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us get this out of the way. There is other testimony here I suppose these people in these gangs were supposed to be underprivileged youth. You so regarded them?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The testimony here is that when they go down to get somebody out of jail they have big bundles of money on them. Reverend BRAZIER. I have heard that testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. The further testimony is that some of them wear $75 shoes, dressed in that fashion.

Further testimony is that they buy fine automobiles.

Would you put them in the category, if that is true, of poor people? Reverend BRAZIER. Well, to the degree that anybody can drive a long car and wear $75 shoes, Senator, I would hardly characterize that as being poor.

The CHAIRMAN. This is testimony that was received here.

Reverend BRAZIER. I think that was related probably to a very few. We serve 499

The CHAIRMAN. It is to the leaders primarily, these people that you had on the payroll there, that is whom it has been testified against, not the rank and file of members. Against these people whom you employed as instructors and so forth.

Reverend BRAZIER. I would say basically these youth came from very poor, underprivileged backgrounds. I would say that; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. If they were flashing rolls of money like this while engaged in teaching, instructing or instructing instructors, or whatever they did, those that were on the payroll, if they were doing that, had this money on them like that at these times, and their only source of income was what was being paid to them by the Government, can you account for this extra money that they seemed to be so affluent with?

Reverend BRAZIER. I cannot.

The CHAIRMAN. It does raise a kind of suspicion if that is true, doesn't it?

Reverend BRAZIER. A suspicion of what, Senator?

The CHAIRMAN. What their activities were. It would arouse suspicion, would it not?

Reverend BRAZIER. One would wonder, yes. One would wonder where the money was coming from.

The CHAIRMAN. These are the individuals in charge of these centers. Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, we never saw them with Cadillacs. I never saw them with Cadillacs, never.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't think you saw very much. Did you go down and inspect these places?

Reverend BRAZIER. The first 6 months I was in those centers almost every day.

The CHAIRMAN. And you never saw anything like this?

Reverend BRAZIER. No. If I had saw something like this I would have stopped it.

The CHAIRMAN. When Hairston came out of jail after having somebody killed, on this charge, you heard about that?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not do anything to try to find out if that is true or not?

Reverend BRAZIER. How am I going to find out if it is true or not? I am not a policeman.

The CHAIRMAN. You said you did something about these things when you found out.

Reverend BRAZIER. What I am saying is if I went into a center and I saw pot smoking and marihuana smoking and parties in there I would close the center down.

I am not saying I went out and investigated every charge that the people were picked up and arrested on. I don't think that is a reasonable thing for me to do. I don't think I should take that kind of responsibility.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was this man that was shot where this picture shows the scene? Was his name Evans?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he an instructor?

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't think he was at that time. He was a trainee.

The CHAIRMAN. He was in the program?
Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether they kept these Disciples centers 3 and 4 locked?

Reverend BRAZIER. They were supposed to be locked.

The CHAIRMAN. They kept them locked?

Reverend BRAZIER. Do you mean overnight? I would say in No. 4 that there have been occasions when I came to center 4 when they were locked, during classes.

Are you referring to that?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Reverend BRAZIER. I would say that has happened.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been some testimony here, I didn't know whether you knew about that.

Reverend BRAZIER. I have been to center 4 and found it locked. Senator MUNDT. Reverend Brazier, you mentioned that one of the reasons you hired some of these people-problem people-with unsavory records, problem people, was that you wanted to see what they would do if they were given responsibility?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. You gave them a little authority. I can understand that kind of rationale. You had this project for almost a year and you are trying, I believe, to have it funded for another year?

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

Senator MUNDT. On the basis of your experience now, what you have done, and the methods you have employed, would you feel that if this fund were made available for another year-and that is one of the recommendations, yes or no, I suppose, we are going to have to make to the Appropriations Committee of the Senate, at least they are going to ask us on the basis of this experience you have had, if you get the funds so that you can continue for another year, would you think it to be a justifiable policy and would you recommend that Mr. Eugene Hairston have a position of authority in that project again?

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, I am not sure exactly what we would do under these circumstances.

You see, what we are trying to do here and I think this is very important-I don't want to say yes and I don't want to say no-we have a problem here.

Here is a man who probably has been convicted. A person who has been convicted of this kind of crime probably could not have another part in this project. I think this is clear.

Senator MUNDT. Do you mean you think he should have?

Reverend BRAZIER. I would say be under conviction, no. Let me deal with this because we have not made any basic decision.

I would say that we would take a look at not just this group here but we would take a look at the other group of the East Side Disciples. I would say there are a number of these youths who have shown that they can or are really trying to assume responsibility.

Some of them did not work out so well. I haven't sat down with my staff yet and said which ones are we going not to use. I am not in a position to say we are going to drop this one, this one, this one, because the hearings have come up, we have heard about all these kinds of charges, we have to make a basic decision.

Certainly a person who has been convicted, the OEO regulations say he cannot be hired. But here we have another group, some of them who have been in trouble. Yet some of them are really trying, Senator. We have seen some real behavior changes in a lot of them. We would like to utilize some of them again. Some of them we probably would

not.

Senator MUNDT. This committee has never heard anybody testify that all your experiments have failed. We have never heard testimony that your rationale was wrong a hundred percent. I am quite prepared to believe that some of them measured up to these responsibilities and had a behavioral change. I want to ask you about three of them. I am asking now about Eugene Hairston. I understand your testimony is that you would not recommend that he be employed because he had been convicted of a serious charge.

Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct.

Senator MUNDT. What would you recommend concerning Mr. Barksdale?

Reverend BRAZIER. I would recommend that we use him again. Senator MUNDT. You think he is all right.

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't say he is all right. I am saying I observed the man and the man, as far as I can see, really put forth an effort. The police may not agree with me on that but I have to be honest here. I think the man put forth a real effort to do some good things. I am not saying he was perfect. I am not saying the program was perfect. Senator MUNDT. One of those efforts was pretty serious, pretty rough, if we can believe the testimony of the man who got shot. Reverend BRAZIER. What was that?

Senator MUNDT. Dorenzo says he had a big squabble with Mr. Barksdale in his office. They shot him on the way out. He showed us the scar on his head.

Reverend BRAZIER. I was not aware of that. I am saying if I sit up here and try to disavow all of these youths who really put in time

and work

Senator MUNDT. I have voted for some of these projects. I have accepted some of your rationale. You said you did it to experiment, to find out what you could find out. If you found out it failed would you recommend to the taxpayers who would be putting more money in this project that you put the same failures back on?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir; we would not put the failures back on. Senator MUNDT. You don't think Mr. Barksdale was a failure? Reverend BRAZIER. I don't think he was a failure.

Senator MUNDT. Do you think he would be a good chap to put in charge of the moral uplift of the youth?

Reverend BRAZIER. I am not talking about moral uplift. I would not say put him in charge of moral uplift. I am saying this, that those youths have tremendous influence on the other youth in the community. What I am saying is that I don't think that all those youth are lost to society. I don't think so.

Senator MUNDT. It is not a question whether they are lost to society. It is a question of whether or not the taxpayers are justified in putting their hard-earned dollars in that program. What worries me is that people in your capacity say we will put them in charge of other youth as a model or as a director or as a counselor or somebody of that capacity so that their good intentions will improve the behavioral patterns. Is Mr. Barksdale a fugitive from justice?

Reverend BRAZIER. Not to my knowledge. The officer here says he is a fugitive from justice.

Senator MUNDT. That is our information.

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know that.

Senator MUNDT. Assuming that is correct, and the officers say it iswe have the report-let us assume that he is. If we assume he is, do you still want to testify that if we win the Congress over to refinance this program you will put the fugitive from justice in charge of improving the behavioral pattern of the youths?

Reverend BRAZIER. We are not going to put a fugitive from justice in charge. All I am saying is that a number of these youth have shown that we want to do something constructive. I am saying that the Congress ought to be concerned about these youth and not just ax this project because one or two of them or three or four for that matter may have gotten in trouble with the law. The point I am trying to make is that the Woodlawn Organization is not saying we want this money for our uses. I am not saying that. We will go on if this project is cut off.