Reverend BRAZIER. They are harmonizing now, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. How do they harmonize?

Reverend BRAZIER. He is showing you what we did since June 22, there are 105.

The CHAIRMAN. Since June 22?

Reverend BRAZIER. As of June 22, I believe.

The CHAIRMAN. He claims 39, you placed that many on jobs.

Reverend BRAZIER. That is what they are saying. That is not what I am saying.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether that is what he is saying or not, since that time. He is saying that there were that many as of that time. If this is true, then the implication would be that there have been that many placed since that time. If that is true we ought to know about it.

Reverend BRAZIER. I have given you the figures. Those last ones I gave you coincide with my chart.

The CHAIRMAN. I know they coincide with your chart but they do not coincide here with what the executive director

Reverend BRAZIER. The last that you have there now is in addition. to what he wrote you. This is the last figure.

The CHAIRMAN. I know that is the last figure coming from there but if true, then you have placed more than half of these people in that few days' time. I wondered if that is a fact.

Reverend BRAZIER. I am not in a position, but only giving what is submitted to me.

The CHAIRMAN. This is dated June 21.

Reverend BRAZIER. That is what they are saying. That is an Urban League report.

The CHAIRMAN. This is Urban League.

Reverend BRAZIER. But you are getting a later figure, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. All I am asking is, are you contending that since May 17 and down to June 22 you placed the difference between 39 and— what is the total there, 105. What does the last figure say?

Senator MUNDT. Either 61 or 62.

Reverend BRAZIER. Seventy-one he says still on jobs.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether this is employed or not. This says still employed, 61.

Reverend BRAZIER. My project director says that they have employed 10 people since then.

The CHAIRMAN. That would make

Reverend BRAZIER. Seventy-one.

The CHAIRMAN. You have 71 now?

Reverend BRAZIER. That is what my project director said.
The CHAIRMAN. When did your project end?

Reverend BRAZIER. May 31.

Senator, let me make a clarification because it looks like a little difference here. We closed the centers down May 24. But we have had extensions from the Government, from OEO, through June and July for the purpose of phasing this project out, you know, accounting for all the materials and everything.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean you closed down the training program? Reverend BRAZIER. All youth are no longer professionals, nonprofessionals, trainees. All have been out. There is none of that. The CHAIRMAN. Except to wind it up.

Reverend BRAZIER. We wind it up. In the meantime the youth are still coming in asking for jobs. We still have the supportive service man helping us wind up. He is placing them as he can.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Senator Harris.

Senator HARRIS. Mr. Chairman, I wanted to say first, to you, and Reverend Brazier, that I am very impressed by your testimony and demeanor, which I think convey a great deal of concern. I concur in the statement which Senator Percy made in introducing you, and in what he had to say about the Woodlawn Organization. I understand that this program tried to deal with a very dangerous, volatile, and difficult situation which involved a great deal of risk. I believe we must not act to confine OEO programs simply to conventional juvenile delinquency projects, or just to those projects which don't entail any risk. If we imposed that sort of limitation I think we would be writing off a lot of people who are presently lost or who may be lost to society. I know that we have to be inovative and creative. I also know that you understand that the law has to be enforced; I think you believe that strongly and that you would agree that people who violate the law should be arrested. You don't see it as your job to do the arresting, however.

Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir; I do not. I agree with you that law violators should be arrested.

Senator HARRIS. In addition to that, there is the question of law enforcement procedure itself. You felt, I take it, as did others in

Chicago, and apparently OEO as well, that law enforcement alone. was not making enough progress in rehabilitating some of these young people and that other efforts ought to be made. Is that how this project was initiated?

Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct.

Senator, may I add we didn't bring this project into being because we were antagonistic to the police department. We really thought that we were really supplementing the work of the police department to try as a community to give aid to these kinds of conditions.

Let us take a look at the record. Let us see what people are saying. I think we ought to be frank. People when they see these conditions going on in the community, they say, "Why don't the people in the black community do something about their problems? Why don't they try to lift themselves by their bootstraps? Why don't they go to work and do something about these conditions? This is what the Woodlawn Organization did. We traveled to different groups trying to get funded to do something to help the youth of our community.

We first approached Encyclopaedia Britannica to discuss with them what kind of program could we become involved in to help the youth of our community. We did not get too far. Mr. Charles Benton was very sympathetic to our program, what we wanted to do, but some of his staff people felt that maybe they were not the best suited for a program with this population.

We discussed this with Mr. John Hearst, who was at that time connected with the Raytheon Corp. We discussed this with Mr. Kinister of the Encyclopaedia Britannica Academy. We were conscious of the fact we had a problem. We didn't know what to do with the problem. We were not experts. I don't know a penologist. I don't know a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or sociologist, or anybody in the United States of America who can say we have the answer to this problem. I am saying the concerted efforts of not just the police department—I disagree with the police who say "Just leave all the youths to us, we will break them up, we will bust their heads, we will throw them in jail, we will lock them up and take care of this thing."

I don't see that this is the answer to this problem. There are a whole lot of people who are much more knowledgeable than I would be don't agree that this can be solved merely by police action. I think everybody has to join together, the community, the police, the elected officials, everybody-the Senate-everybody has to join together to work and help redeem many of our alienated youth in this society. This is what the Woodlawn Organization has tried to do. We have found that when you show to a lot of these youth, not to all of them but to a large majority of them, concern and interest, we find that they begin to respond because to many of them nobody has shown any interest in them, nobody has shown any concern for them.

Everybody has been criticizing them, running them down. I am saying those who break the law, I feel that the police should do their duty. I feel we ought to do more than just depend on police action in trying to cope with the seriousness of the problem, not only that which we have at Woodlawn but the problem in every urban area in the United States of America.

Senator HARRIS. I concur, and I also endorse Senator Percy's request that six additional witnesses be called to testify. I believe one of

the six he suggested we call is this man from the Urban League, whose letter is in the record. I think perhaps we could call both him and Mr. Harmon. I think we should have as full and complete a picture of this matter as we can secure. I think also we ought to call in Mr. Harding and others of the U.S. Office of Economic Opportunity so that we can get their view of the issues the subcommittee is discussing.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, may I say to you that Mr. Harding will be called. I had him in the office this morning in a conference trying to get records from him that we have requested. We have to have another conference trying to get records. Everybody that is really important in this thing is being heard.

I think we can get the records. It is Government property and it is Government business, and I think we can get the records. I am doing everything I can to try to do it without having to issue a subpena. Senator HARRIS. I agree with that, Mr. Chairman.

Let me ask you a few questions for the record, Reverend Brazier. Do you feel that the general aim of the project which you have described in your testimony and in response to questions, has been fulfilled to some extent? Would you describe the program generally as successful or unsuccessful?

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, we have had some pluses and minuses. But for the information of this committee I would like to present pictures that were taken before we knew we were going to be called up here for investigation-I would like to have the record, introduce to the committee some of these pictures. People say there is no learning going on. They said they have been doing nothing but smoking marihuana, drinking Robitussin. I would like to show you pictures taken long before we ever thought about a Senate investigating committee.

Here is a member of the East Side Disciples who got a job as a bookkeeper.

The CHAIRMAN. Listen to me just a moment. How many pictures have you? I am not trying to shut you off, but we are going to quit now. Reverend BRAZIER. I don't have too many.

The CHAIRMAN. I say we are going to quit in a few moments. Give us any of your pictures now so you can show them and let them be identified for the record.

Reverend BRAZIER. I want to elaborate.

The CHAIRMAN. I am going to let you elaborate, but I am not going to stay later than 5:30. We have made some progress, as much as we could. I am trying to get some pictures in here where everybody can see them but move quickly.

Reverend BRAZIER. Here is the East Side Disciple who got a job as a bookkeeper and he has had that job for several months, and he is doing quite well at that job.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us help you get them in the record.

That will be exhibit 218A.

(Photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 218A" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Reverend BRAZIER. This young man was shot in one of the gang activities. He is paralyzed.

The CHAIRMAN. Mark this one "218B."

(Photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 218B" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. There are a series of these pictures that he wants to present. As he presents each one hereafter let it be lettered 218C, and so forth.

Reverend BRAZIER. This young man was shot in one of the gang's activities.

The CHAIRMAN. What is his name?

Reverend BRAZIER. Michael Williams. Yet because of this

he is now a productive citizen. He is working on a job.

Here is a Disciple named Wilbur Harris. He is working on a job, productive.

(Photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 218C" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Reverend BRAZIER. Here are these youths, many of these same youths are at 3M Corp. They are being instructed on how to use overhead projectors and to develop materials for their use. This is at the 3M Corp. downtown on North Michigan Avenue.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they now employed there?

Reverend BRAZIER. No. This was an instruction. This was part of instruction in service training.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not now employed?
Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they still there now getting training?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, the project is over.

The CHAIRMAN. The project is over?

Reverend BRAZIER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not employed?

Reverend BRAZIER. Some of them may be employed. This does not mean that these are employed here.

The CHAIRMAN. Let it be numbered.

(Photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 218D" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

Reverend BRAZIER. Here is one still at the 3M Corp. learning how to utilize overhead levers. This is Jimmy Shead, of the East Side Disciples, and he is now employed. He has a job.

The CHAIRMAN. Which one of these has a job?

Reverend BRAZIER. This one here, James Shead. And George Walker. Both are working. Both are now employed. They are not on that list.

(Photograph was marked "Exhibit No. 218E" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the man whose check was involved in this forgery?

Reverend BRAZIER. Sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Is that the man whose checks were involved in this forgery?

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know. I don't understand what you

mean.

The CHAIRMAN. A man named Shead was involved in this Dorenzo case where he was arrested with a check.

Mr. DUFFY. Minjo Shead.