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in another gun, that still does not say there were two guns in our

centers.

I am not saying here at any point that at some time or another some youth did not come into our center with a gun on his person any more than a principal in a public school where many shootings have occurred would ever say that he doesn't have students in his public school with guns in their pockets.

The CHAIRMAN. We have hoodlums in many places. The point is here-listen to me a moment.

Reverend BRAZIER. I am trying to finish my answer, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. The point is here we have a Federal project where you are saying there were no guns, never heard of them, and yet a fellow is shot during school hours right in the office of one of your top men, Barksdale, the head of the Disciples, who is one of your top men, paid for by this project and brought in from outside of the area to function in that project.

Is that correct?

Reverend BRAZIER. You said several things, Senator. I am not sure as to which you want me to say correct to.

The CHAIRMAN. In Barksdale's office, right in his office where you are supposed to have some supervision.

Reverend BRAZIER. My project director was there at the time. He was in the center.

The CHAIRMAN. He was there in the center?

Reverend BRAZIER. Right there in the center. So there was supervision in the center. But there was not anybody in the particular office room at the time.

The CHAIRMAN. This was the boss' office?

Reverend BRAZIER. No. Barksdale was the center chief.

The CHAIRMAN. What is a center chief if he is not a boss?
Reverend BRAZIER. You would not want to call him a boss.
The CHAIRMAN. No one else was there. He is the chief.

Reverend BRAZIER. He was the center chief.

The CHAIRMAN. What are the duties of the chief?

Reverend BRAZIER. The duties of the center chief were to supervise the centers in conjunction with the professional. When there were no professionals there naturally the center chief was in charge. Somebody had to be in charge.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is your organization. You say you don't tolerate guns, you didn't have guns, you never heard of guns being used, you never heard of narcotics, you never heard of these things, you didn't know a thing about it.

Last January, you had an accidental shooting right in the head office of one of your centers, in the chief's office of one of your centers. Next door to it, right next door to it on the same day this picture was made (exhibit 216B) with the door leading into the next room showing these empty bottles of narcotics.

Is that your explanation of it?

Reverend BRAZIER. I would like to take that second picture you have entered into the record with all those narcotics. I have one of my staff men who I would like to ask to look at the picture and state if that is that same picture he saw a policeman staging.

I would like to have him sworn and testify to that picture because he tells me that a policeman went out into the back where the garbage is kept and pulled all those bottles out of the garbage can, took them in the room and set them up and took a picture of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Bring him around.

Yo do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. McLEARY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated.

TESTIMONY OF EVERETT MCLEARY

The CHAIRMAN. What is your name?
Mr. McLEARY. Everett Charles McLeary.
The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live?

Mr. McLEARY. 6812 South Dante, Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your employment?

Mr. McLEARY. Assistant supportive service supervisor.
The CHAIRMAN. Assistant supportive service supervisor.
What were your duties?

Mr. McLEARY. My duties were to assist Sol Ice, supportive service supervisor, in job placement and counseling for youth in the program. The CHAIRMAN. What were your duties as assistant? What did you do?

Mr. McLEARY. Counseling job placement.

The CHAIRMAN. You counseled job placement?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Give us some idea how you counseled job placement. Give us a demonstration of it.

Mr. McLEARY. More or less on the appearance expected, that a trainee should present when he goes for a job interview.

The CHAIRMAN. More or less what?

Mr. McLEARY. Their appearance.

The CHAIRMAN. On how he should dress when he went to get a job? Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What salary did you get for giving that instruction? Mr. McLEARY. Pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. How much salary did you get for giving that kind of instruction?

Mr. McLEARY. Yearly salary, $7,000.

The CHAIRMAN. You got $7,000 for that. Did you perform any other duties?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. McLEARY. Making court interviews with the subprofessional staff.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Court?

Mr. McLEARY. Court appearances.

The CHAIRMAN. Making court appearances, to go to court. For what? Mr. McLEARY. More or less for support of the subprofessional. The CHAIRMAN. For what? Went to court with the subprofessionals? What court did you go to? I don't understand.

Mr. McLEARY. To make sure that they were in court at the time of their court appearance.

The CHAIRMAN. Round them up and get them to court. That was another one of your duties?

Mr. McLEARY. No, not round them up.

The CHAIRMAN. To make sure they got there. What do you mean by that?

Mr. McLEARY. You see, most of these youth weren't experienced in court appearances, procedures. At times we had problems and difficulties there with two groups.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean two groups?

Mr. McLEARY. Rangers and Disciples.

The CHAIRMAN. They were kind of at war with each other?
Mr. McLEARY. I would not call it at war.

The CHAIRMAN. What was it then?

Mr. McLEARY. Sometime there was conflict at court or en route to court.

The CHAIRMAN. What?

Mr. McLEARY. At times there were conflicts. They would have problems going to and from court.

The CHAIRMAN. They would have problems going to and from court.

What do you mean by problems?

Mr. McLEARY. Interference with the rival group.

The CHAIRMAN. A rival group would interfere. You mean a fight? Mr. McLEARY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean?

Mr. McLEARY. Words passed and things like this.

The CHAIRMAN. They would insult each other in passing, is that it? Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You would go along with them?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. For what purpose?

Mr. McLEARY. To make sure that there was no problems.

The CHAIRMAN. To make sure there were no problems. How do you

make sure there were no problems?

Mr. McLEARY. My appearance there.
The CHAIRMAN. Just your appearance?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That did it?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All you had to do was be present and insure there were no problems?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. How much of your time was taken up doing that? Mr. McLEARY. Pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. How much of your time was taken up doing that? Mr. McLEARY. It wasn't daily routine, no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How often did it occur?

Mr. McLEARY. Approximately, I guess, once a week, if that often. The CHAIRMAN. Those are two of your duties. Going to court once a week, telling them how to dress when they went to get a job. Now what were your other functions?

Mr. McLEARY. In the centers we would give counseling and support to the subprofessional staff.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of counseling did you give the subprofessional staff?

Mr. McLEARY. On their procedures and instructions for presentation of their class.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of instruction did you give them?

Mr. McLEARY. My duty was not to instruct classes. It was a case when problems came up during the subprofessional instructing his class, questions about a set subject. They would refer to us on this. The CHAIRMAN. Give us an illustration.

Mr. McLEARY. Say for a certain math class, if there were problems about a certain procedure, they would refer to us for correction. The CHAIRMAN. I don't understand. Who were the instructors in the math class?

Mr. McLEARY. The instructors were the subprofessionals.

The CHAIRMAN. They were subprofessionals. You mean they were not competent to instruct, they had to refer to you?

Mr. McLEARY. I didn't say they weren't competent.

The CHAIRMAN. Were they?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes, they were.

The CHAIRMAN. What did they refer to you?

Mr. McLEARY. For questions they could not figure out for themselves.

The CHAIRMAN. Problems they could not work?

Mr. McLEARY. I wouldn't say problems they couldn't work but to make certain that their problems were correct.

The CHAIRMAN. What problems?

Mr. McLEARY. Any type of math problem that they would have, more or less as a followup or check. They would add two and two or something like that.

The CHAIRMAN. They didn't know, you would tell them it was four?

Mr. McLEARY. Pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. If they were asked two and two and they didn't know the answer you would tell them that was four?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that an illustration of what you were doing? Mr. McLEARY. It is an illustration.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a better one?

Mr. McLEARY. For more complicated problems-
The CHAIRMAN. Give me a complicated one.
Mr. McLEARY. Multiplication, for example.

The CHAIRMAN. Give me one.

Mr. McLEARY. If they were to multiply three times three. The CHAIRMAN. And if they didn't know the answer you would tell them. Give us a complicated problem that you helped them solve. One complicated problem that you helped them solve.

Mr. McLEARY. How to look up in the dictionary, the reference and things of this nature.

The CHAIRMAN. Do what?

Mr. McLEARY. How to refer to a reference book.

The CHAIRMAN. Didn't the instructors know how to refer to a reference book?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes, they did.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would they have to ask you then if they already knew how?

Mr. McLEARY. Our position there was to make certain that they went about it in a correct manner.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of correct manner?

Mr. McLEARY. The same as a public school would do.

The CHAIRMAN. That is like having somebody over a schoolteacher in a schoolroom. We do have a school superintendent but you had superintendents down there. I am trying to find out in what kind of correct manner would you tell them, the instructors, to work.

Mr. McLEARY. The same as a schoolteacher would.

If you were to do a problem or were not certain of a certain procedure, to look up in a reference book.

The CHAIRMAN. You would hand them the book when they needed some reference?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes, and tell them the procedures, how to go about finding it in the book.

The CHAIRMAN. You would tell them to read it?

Mr. McLEARY. Not read it but tell them the proper procedures in finding out the material they needed.

The CHAIRMAN. That was in the book?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know what the proper materials were, yourself?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What were they?

Mr. McLEARY. Could you give me an exact instance? What do you mean do I know the problem?

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator

The CHAIRMAN. Let him talk. You asked for him.

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, but you are asking questions that are not within his purview.

The CHAIRMAN. Apparently not.

Reverend BRAZIER. But the pictures are within his competence. That is what we got him up for. You are trying to confuse him, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Listen, I am going to ask him these questions. You asked him up here. I want to see his competence.

Reverend BRAZIER. His competence on this. He is competent on that. The CHAIRMAN. Listen, if you interrupt any more I will give you another warning. I am going to question this witness. This is pertinent to this inquiry. Here is a man who got $7,000 a year. I want to know what he was doing. He is giving me an illustration of what he was doing.

Can you give me another illustration?

Mr. McLEARY. An illustration of what?

The CHAIRMAN. Of what you were doing in what you have told us. I am giving you a chance to show us how you were earning your

money.

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