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as much garbage, also. He added a few more papers and stuff, too. He got the photographer.

I don't know whether the photographer was behind me or not. As I said earlier, I was concentrating on his placing the bottles there.

Senator CURTIS. I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just want your best recollection of this. Did he refer only to the occupants of the first floor as the ones who might be responsible for these bottles and cans?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
Senator Curtis. How many times have you been in that building!
Mr. McLEARY. In the room or the building?
Senator CURTIS. The building.

Mr. McLEARY. As part of my routine and rotating through the program to the different centers, approximately three times a week.

Senator CURTIS. Over how many weeks?
Mr. McLEARY. Since January.

Senator Curtis. Now the program that went on upstairs, do you have any idea, or did you ever see anybody going and coming there!

Mr. MİCLEARY. Going and coming; yes.
Senator Curtis. Were they youths being trained?
Mr. McLEARY. I don't know what they were doing there.
Senator CURTIS. Whom would you see going in and out?
Mr. MCLEARY. Youths.

Senator Curtis. Somewhat similar age groups to those who were in this project on the first floor?

Mr. MCLEARY. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. Did you report this picture-taking incident and the arrangement of the cans and bottles and trash to anybody at the time?

Mr. MCLEARY. Yes; I did.
Senator CURTIS. To whom !
Mr. McLEARY. The project director, Anthony Gibbs.
Senator CURTIS. How did you make that report?

Mr. McLEARY. Well, at the time I called and informed him what was going on. When I returned to the main office I informed him at the same time and also to Sam Sains.

Senator CURTIS. You gave an oral report.
What did the project man say to you?

Mr. McLEARY. It was police procedure. He could not interfere with that after he had already explained to me, after the officer had already explained to me this was police procedures.

Senator CURTIS. What did Mr. Sains say?
Mr. McLEARY. There was no direct reply made to me on the subject.

Senator CURTIS. Again, I do not want to put words in your mouth. All I am trying to find out is the degree of the seriousness of the tampering with the evidence.

Did you report to either of those men that these things were gathered up and pictures taken in order to show what was going on in the building?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes, I did.

Senator CURTIS. Did you report to those men at the time that things were being brought in and pictures taken to give false evidence in a shooting?

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Mr. McLEARY. I don't know if it was to give false evidence or not, but I explained to him these materials were brought in from another room.

Senator CURTIS. But you did not make that charge?
Mr. McLEARY. No, I didn't.

Senator Curtis. I think that becomes very important. There are people in this area who have very harsh views of the police. But the police have a pretty tough job. It is admitted a lot of crime takes place in the area. I have no doubt that there are parents who come to the police and tell about threats to their children because, as far as I know, there is no dispute here in the testimony of anybody that everybody had to belong to the gang and pay dues.

I can see a police officer gathering up in one place whatever he might find and take a picture of it as having some value of proving what was going on in the premises. I can understand that.

If someone brought new articles in and took pictures to falsify what may become a court record in a shooting, then we have a much more dangerous situation.

I think you have given me a satisfactory answer as to what you believe happened at that time.

TESTIMONY OF REV. ARTHUR BRAZIER-Resumed

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Reverend BRAZIER. Mr. Chairman, could I enlarge on the implications here as related to a letter that I wrote to Mr. Bernstein on June 19, 1967, just 3 days after--about 3 weeks after the funding of this program, that has some bearing on some of our fears

The CHAIRMAN. June 19?
Reverend BRAZIER. June 19. I will submit this to you.
The CHAIRMAN. 1967 ?
Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Reverend BRAZIER (reading):
Dear Mr. Bernstein. As of this date we have had no further problems with the
police department as we endeavor to implement our program.

However, I do have some fears that I would like to relate to you. My experience with the police department has been of a limited nature and while I have read newspaper accounts of persons accusing policemen of planting illegal articles in order to justify arrests, I have always taken these charges with a grain of salt.

In view of the clearly illegal action taken by the police in the June 6 incident at the Woodlawn Organization, I am now inclined to give more credence to the above-mentioned newspaper report.

We are fully cognizant of the character of the population of our program and have no desire to interfere with or impede normal police activity and while I am sure that the police department does not condone nor approve the kind of activity related to the charges that have been reported in the newspapers it is always possible that some overzealous policeman might get “carried away" in his efforts to perform his duty. This is a fear we have and I am relating it to you. Senator CURTIS. Is the incident in that letter the same incident? Reverend BRAZIER. No, it has no relationship to this incident. Senator CURTIS. So you do not offer that letter as corroboration of what Mr. McLeary testified to?

Reverend BRAZIER. Definitely not. Just some fears we have related back in June and also to point out that we believed in the integrity of the police department.

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We did not feel that the police department would condone anything like that, but we did know that people being human beings do sometimes get carried away in an effort to perform their duties.

I want to so state we had this fear and after Mr. McLeary related this to me I wanted him to identify these to point out that these kind of bottles were not lying around within our training center but were brought from the garbage can in the center.

The CHAIRMAN. Where was the garbage can located?

TESTIMONY OF EVERETT MCLEARY-Resumed

Mr. McLEARY. Rear of the building.
The CHAIRMAN. Who occupied the other floor of the building?
Mr. MCLEARY. Youth Action.
The CHAIRMAN. Just two groups occupied the building?
Mr. McLEARY. To the best of my knowledge, yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the probability is that these bottles either came from Youth Action or from your group; one or the other?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. That would be the assumption.
Mr. McLEARY. I would assume from Youth Action.
The CHAIRMAN. You say Youth Action?
Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Who are the Youth Action folks?
Mr. McLEARY. I don't know the people, no.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anything about them?

TESTIMONY OF REV. ARTHUR BRAZIER—Resumed
Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Are they some of your group?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, sir. The reason Mr. McLeary says probably they came from Youth Action, my project director, Mr. Anthony Gibbs, informed me that Commander Griffin in a monitoring meeting indicated he thought, Commander Griffin thought, that they probably came from Youth Action.

The CHAIRMAN. We have had Commander Griffin here. We will probably have him back. As I understand, you wrote that letter before this project ever started ?

Reverend BRAZIER. Which letter, the June 19?

The CHAIRMAN. No, the project started around June 2. It was activated in September or October.

Reverend BRAZIER. It was the

The CHAIRMAN. I know there were some people put on the payroll on July 1. They began to put people on the payroll July 1. There was nobody on the payroll before then. They actually didn't start the program until September or October.

Reverend BRAZIER. We started a training program in September and October. But we were in the process of tooling up for the training program.

The CHAIRMAN. Tooling up?
Reverend BRAZIER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't have too much trouble, did you? All you did was select these top leaders of the gang.

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Reverend BRAZIER. No. There was quite a bit went into tooling up, much more than just that, Senator. There was a severe problem, there was a severe problem of locating the training centers.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't have any centers, did you?
Reverend BRAZIER. When, June 19?
The CHAIRMAN, Yes.
Reverend BRAZIER. No.
The CHAIRMAN. You had to find buildings to rent, to get started?

Reverend BRAZIER. This was a very difficult process because of the great flurry of action by the city to try to do something to keep things cool. The city was making an effort to try to keep things cool. That was the city's effort.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions on this point?

Senator MUSKIE. I just wanted to ask Mr. McLeary one question if I may, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. McLeary, in discussing your duties with the chairman, it is unclear to me whether you worked with the students or with the teachers. You worked with the students, did you not?

TESTIMONY OF EVERETT MCLEARY-Resumed
Mr. McLEARY. Both.
Senator MUSKIE. Both the students and the teachers?
Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. Did you have supervisory duties with respect to teachers ?

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
Senator MUSKIE. You supervised teacher?
Mr. McLEARY. Yes, sir.
Senator MUSKIE. What were those duties?

Mr. McLEARY. More or less discussing health issues. As I said earlier, it was basically in counseling. It was not developing material for vocational education or basic education. It was more or less mainly in counseling.

Senator MUSKIE. Were the teachers subordinate to you?
Mr. McLEARY. No.
Senator MUSKIE. They simply worked with you?
Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. What were your duties with respect to the students?

Mr. McLEARY. Pardon?

Senator MUSKIE. What were your duties with respect to the students?

Mr. McLEARY. Informing them as well with the instructors, I mean subprofessionals.

Senator MUSKIE. In your colloquy with the chairman you talked about working with problems and advising as to the use of reference books.

Mr. McLEARY. Yes.

Senator MUSKIE. Now did that have to do with your duties in deal-
ing with students?
Mr. McLEARY. Students, yes.
Senator MUSKIE. With teachers what did you do?
Mr. McLEARY. Basically the same.

85-779—68--pt. 12-12

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Senator MUSKIE. Did the teachers require this kind of supervision from you?

Mr. McLEARY. It was not really a supervisory role. It was more or less as assistant, to assist instructors. I did not go in and say we must do this, we must do that.

Senator MUSKIE. You were assistant to the teachers ?
Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
Senator MUSKIE. In dealing with the students!
Mr. MCLEARY. Yes,
Senator MUSKIE. You did not supervise the teachers ?

Mr. McLEARY. In a sense it could be called supervision of the teachers.

Senator MUSKIE. Did they take orders from you?
Mr. McLEARY. Well, I didn't give any orders.
Senator MUSKIE. Did you have authority to give orders to them!
Mr. McLEARY. Yes.
Senator MUSKIE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CURTIS. Mr. Chairman, I am going to have to leave the room for another engagement. I would like to ask Reverend Brazier 1 question or two.

A I understand it, you people felt that this was an experimental project in Chicago.

TESTIMONY OF REV. ARTHUR BRAZIER/Resumed

Reverend BRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Senator Curtis. Have you had any experience with any project like this before?

Reverend BRAZIER. Never.

Senator CURTIS. Did you travel any place and observe other projects?

Reverend BRAZIER. Never.

Senator CURTIS. Have you ever visited Father Flanagan's home for the boys?

Reverend BRAZIER. I have not.

Senator CURTIS. Are you familiar with the work that was carried on by Rev. David Wilkinson in New York?

Reverend BRAZIER. I have read his book, I believe. I believe he wrote a book.

Senator CURTIS. Yes, a couple of them, “Cross and the Switchblade."

Reverend BRAZIER. I have read that book.

Senator Curtis. That has been going on for some years. You never had an opportunity to check on that before you started this?

Reverend BRAZIER. No, I did not.
Senator CURTIS. I think that is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions of Mr. McCleary?
All right, you may stand aside.

Reverend Brazier, did you receive a letter of January 25, 1968, from Theodore M. Berry, director, community action program of the OEO, making certain recommendations to you or directions about the project?

Reverend BRAZIER. That is correct.

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