Reverend BRAZIER. Since the program, the direction that many of them are taking is in the right way. We are not saying that everything is perfect but we are saying that this program

The CHAIRMAN. What about the leaders, the people you have leading and to whom you delegated responsibility? You have one of them, the chief of one of the gangs; he has been convicted for solicitation to murder, soliciting minors to go out and murder somebody. Barksdale, the chief of the other, I am advised now, is a fugitive from justice at the moment. Dorenzo, the second in command of the Disciples, has testified here about the conditions that have prevailed. So has the second top leader of another gang.

Now, if this testimony is true, the conditions that have been sworn to by them and corroborated in some measure by police officials, do you say this program should be continued?

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, first of all, I say this, that this program has made some very positive discoveries in Woodlawn youth.

I say this program has made some significant success. I say there are men who are up there whom you didn't name, who are now, Adam Battiste, who is up there is now, I believe, working at International Harvester.

There are others up there who are now working on productive jobs. We are not trying to say that everybody has been reformed in 9 months, Senator.

I hope you are listening to what I am saying because what I am saying is very important. You asked me a question and then everybody gets huddled around and starts talking.

The CHAIRMAN. That is our business.

1

Reverend BRAZIER. What is the use of me talking if you don't listen to me while I am talking?

The CHAIRMAN. I am listening to you. I asked you a question. I asked you if you would still want to continue a program under these

conditions?

Reverend BRAZIER. I say this kind of program with the kinds of new controls, the kind of new interventions, is a worthwhile program and should be continued.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you continue with these same kind of people? Reverend BRAZIER. You cannot demonstrate it with an experiment in 9 months.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you continue it with these same people? Reverend BRAZIER. We have not been able to make an evaluation of all these people.

The CHAIRMAN. How long is it going to take?

Reverend BRAZIER. First, we have to have an evaluation.

The CHAIRMAN. How long does it take to evaluate it?

Reverend BRAZIER. It takes quite some time to evaluate. It takes quite some time.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had it operating for 9 months.
Reverend BRAZIER. That is not time enough to decide-

The CHAIRMAN. Whether they are any good?

Reverend BRAZIER. In 9 months maybe we did get a person who looks to be real good. Nine months is not enough time to decide as to whether this person looks good for 9 months or whether he is going to look bad the second 9 months.

The CHAIRMAN. One is already convicted and another is a fugitive from justice.

Reverend BRAZIER. And one is in a job with International Harvester. The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about leaders to whom you delegate responsibility.

Reverend BRAZIER. I am talking about leaders, Senator. He has a job. He is not in jail. What about some of the positive parts of the program, Senator? There are a lot of bad things that you can bring out but there are a lot of good things you can bring out, too.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us talk about the bad things. I am asking you about the bad things.

Reverend BRAZIER. You have been talking about the bad things for 3 weeks.

The CHAIRMAN. How about Troop? He is indicted for rape now. Reverend BRAZIER. Ever since last September. I wonder when they are going to have his trial.

The CHAIRMAN. What about Jackson? Is he under indictment for rape, too?

Reverend BRAZIER. I understand he is.

The CHAIRMAN. How about Troop, Bey, and Jackson? Are they all under indictment for rape?

Reverend BRAZIER. I understand they are all under indictment. I wonder when they are going to come to trial.

The CHAIRMAN. My thought is this: If this is the right kind of program for American taxpayers to be supporting, a group at the head being delegated the power to control, and I am using your word

now

Reverend BRAZIER. Not in the right context.

The CHAIRMAN (continuing). To supervise, to control their behavior, that is what it means, in that place if this is the right kind of project, then every youth gang in the country is being given an invitation to so conduct themselves that they can get in on this program.

Reverend BRAZIER. I think you have come to the wrong conclusion because you started off with the wrong premise.

First of all, let us face the facts of life. Here is a population nobody has been able to deal with. What we are trying to do is now to find new ways and new methods, not just with this population but with other populations. We are not saying you should go out and fund every youth group in the country like this is being funded. This is an experimental program.

Let me give you an example. I read in the newspaper all of these heart transplants, millions and millions of dollars being spent on these heart transplants. I read big headlines, "Heart Transplant Operation Is Successful But Patient Is Dead." I read it all over the place.

We spend millions and millions of dollars on research for cancer and haven't come up with an answer yet.

Let us take the city of Chicago. You have given the city of Chicago, you have given city hall hundreds of millions of dollars to do poverty work and yet riots, acres are being blown up on the West Side.

Yet the very community where you have this kind of project going you haven't had any riot, you haven't had acres of devastation from fire and none of this is being brought out.

Now why is it this one black community organization in Woodlawn, why are we being brought up here and you are saying, "Look, this is a terrible program," when you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars for research in almost every area but in one area where you do have problems with youth and you want to do some research, you are saying this is not a proper use of taxpayers' money.

it.

We need this kind of research to find out how to reach the youth. The CHAIRMAN. This is research. Let me ask you a little more about

You say you can't make up your mind. I mentioned three that were indicted for rape, two or three others that have been convicted, one is a fugitive from justice. How about McChristian and Bailey? Aren't they under indictment now for murder?

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. How about Bernard Green?
Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't he sent to jail for 1 year?

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. No wonder you can't evaluate them if you don't know these things.

Reverend BRAZIER. The police haven't asked me. The program is over. If you had asked me were they indicted during the project. I don't know what happened to these people in June or July.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Is that your answer?

Reverend BRAZIER. I don't know what happened to them in June or Julv. Ask me what happened to them during the program.

The CHAIRMAN. With all of this going on, you as the head of this organization that has become the grantee for these funds now say that you are unable to evaluate these people to whom I have referred who have been the leaders in this program and to whom you say you delegated this authority?

Reverend BRAZIER. I did not say that in that way, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Say it in your way.

Reverend BRAZIER. What I am saying is when we get through evaluating some of these we are talking about a supposition if the program were refunded.

The CHAIRMAN. You have an application up to refund.

Reverend BRAZIER. I am saying if it is refunded. As I said in my earlier testimony, some of these men we will rehire probably, some of them we will not rehire.

I am not willing at this point, without having complete full consultation, because we went into this program dealing with youth with criminal records. Maybe one of these fellows who is under indictment for some kind of crime, it may turn out in our evaluation that maybe we see some changes made in this man. I don't know. I am not in a position to say right now.

The CHAIRMAN. If you are not in a position to say now, I wonder how a Federal Government agency, having the responsibility to make a decision about whether such a program will be continued, I wonder how it can make a decision on your application if you can't make a decision and advise it whether you are going to make corrections and

to

Reverend BRAZIER. I cannot do it at the present time but before it is refunded we probably could.

The CHAIRMAN. I would think, Reverend, in all candor, with all of your experience here in this 9 months' time and with this thing being continuous, not just from the beginning, you would be able to make some judgment. From the beginning there have been complaints about the way it was run on down to the present, and with what you know now and the number of those top men who have been arrested, some convicted of high crimes and others now under indictment for high crimes, I should think you would be able to make some judgment.

If you say you are not and want to leave the record that way up to this hour that you can't make any judgment as to whether you would hire these same people back, then I will leave the record that way. Reverend BRAZIER. I don't want to leave the record the way you state it. I want to leave the record the way I state it.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the way it appears to me.

Reverend BRAZIER. This is the way I want to close it out. What I am saying is that we have a 9-month project. I want you to listen to what I am saying very carefully.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Reverend BRAZIER. You have people who have gotten in trouble with the laws. The program was funded for the purpose of dealing with them.

Now we are saying, "Well, look, they got in trouble with the law and because they got in trouble with the law let us not evaluate with them, not deal with them. Let us say they have been in trouble with the law they are guilty before they are convicted, let us get rid of them. All the others that have been showing some promise, throw them

out."

I am saying for the record, and I think every responsible research person in the country would agree that we ought to have time to evaluate what progress some of these youths have made who are in trouble with the law now.

Maybe they didn't make any progress. Maybe they ought not to be continued. Maybe some did make progress, maybe some should be continued, but we ought to have the right to evaluate that under an ideal set of circumstances and not here be making a sharp, quick decision under the light of a senatorial investigation and say name by name we won't take this one, we won't take this one, we won't take this one.

I don't think it is fair to the evaluation of the project.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the man sitting down here handling your application, is it fair to him?

Reverend BRAZIER. Who?

The CHAIRMAN. Whoever is going to authorize the next project that you have an application in for.

Reverend BRAZIER. They may ask us, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it fair to the Government?

Reverend BRAZIER. The Government may say, "Reverend, before we refund we would now like to know what is your evaluation." Then we will sit down in a clear-cut, calm, objective manner and say, "Sir, we have come to this conclusion about this man, this man seems to be

unrehabilitable. This man seems to be making progress. We wouldn't hire this one or that one."

I wouldn't want to make a snap judgment here. It is not fair to the project.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems after 9 months of authorization it would not be a snap judgment.

Reverend BRAZIER. These programs are usually funded for 2 or 3 years, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. I am going to have to go and we are going to recess until Tuesday at 10 o'clock.

I want to call another witness to identify a report here.

Reverend BRAZIER. Senator, am I to be back here next Tuesday morning at 10?

The CHAIRMAN. I think so.

Lieutenant Buckney, will you come around here?

You have been sworn.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF LT. EDWARD BUCKNEY-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether you can identify this document or not. If you can, tell us what it is.

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Mr. Chairman, this is a report which was submitted by two of my investigators dated January 9, 1968, in regard to the shooting of Joseph Evans at the TWO Center, 862 East 63d Street.

The CHAIRMAN. Who were the two that submitted the report? Lieutenant BUCKNEY. The officers that submitted the report were Stanley Robinson and Lovejoy Foster.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that a report that is in the file? What date was it submitted as related to the occurrence?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. I have to correct that, Mr. Chairman. The report was submitted the 10th. The incident occurred on the 9th of January.

The CHAIRMAN. It was submitted on the 10th and that is it?

Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You identify it as an official report in your files?
Lieutenant BUCKNEY. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You may read it.
Lieutenant BUCKNEY (reading):

The reporting officers went to 862 East 63d Street to ascertain what took place in relation to the shooting of Joseph Evans, alias "Head". The Crime Lab was on the scene taking pictures of the office where the shooting took place. This is a small office which is used by David Barksdale and Nick Dorenzo.

There was a large pool of blood in the center of the office floor and a trail leading from the office to the bathroom. In the bathroom there were bullet holes in the wall and three spent cartridges on the floor.

Also, there were half-pint bottles and wine bottles on the floor. In the waste basket there were about four Robitussin (cough medicine with narcotics) bottles.

A further search revealed about 30 empty bottles and cans (whiskey, wine, beer, Robitussin) on every floor and bathroom.

The reporting officers had the Crime Lab take a picture of some of the bottles. The reporting officers went to the T.W.O. Center at 1018 East 63rd Street where David Barksdale and Minjo Shead were and talked to Barksdale. David stated that the shooting was an accident and the two youths who were in the