ance records and provide us the names of the students who passed his course? Is there any such person?

Mr. HARDING. I do not believe that this is the way this program is set up, a full-time instructor. We were talking about this before the slight recess.

The point I would like to explain to you, we called these people, these gang leaders, instructors; one category was instructors. They were hired for this particular role. It is a little bit comparable to the plan used by the Army in terms of providing sometimes quite uneducated drill sergeants, instructor sergeants, with programed educational material which they use for the purpose of going through a routine to try to teach young recruits what the game is all about.

Senator CURTIS. Is it not true that you started out intending to have outside professional instructions and the gang told you "No"; they would not stand for it; they wanted those salaries themselves?

Mr. HARDING. No, sir; I don't believe that was the originally de

signed program.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I would just like to call to your attention, Mr. Harding, that there was an original proposal which provided that Raytheon would do the teaching. Isn't that true? Now, that proposal was never logged in for some reason. Is that correct?

Mr. HARDING. I am not familiar with that proposal, Mr. Adlerman. Mr. ADLERMAN. There was a proposal.

Mr. HARDING. You mean Raytheon was going to make a proposal that they would do the instructing?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Berry, are you familiar with that?

Mr. BERRY. Raytheon was to be a resource or consultant in helping to develop the instructor system. But Raytheon was not to conductMr. ADLERMAN. Raytheon was ready to provide the instruction, weren't they, on the original proposal?

Mr. BERRY. I am not intimately familiar with that. Mr. Bernstein was the project officer who put together the various components of this experiment.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't you know? You folks at the top? You have some record of it. Doesn't the head office know about it?

Mr. BERRY. It was in the original proposal that Raytheon was to design and to orient the training of instructors. I don't know that it was contemplated that Raytheon was to place the instructors in fact and conduct the instruction program.

Senator CURTIS. Did Raytheon ever do what was originally planned?

Mr. BERRY. The instructors were given both screening and testing and given an orientation in the kinds of materials that were to be used in the skill training and the mathematics skills that were designed for these enrollees.

Reports indicated that the enrollees checked out, screened out, tested out considerably below the level for which the materials had been prepared, which called for the introduction of the Xerox Co. to prepare more simplified basic tools or materials to be used in the training

courses.

Senator CURTIS. How long did the courses last in the Woodlawn instruction program?

Mr. BERRY. There were intended to be two tracks. One of them proved to be unadaptable to the standards, or at least testing, of the enrollees. They were intended to last a period of

Mr. ADLERMAN. This testing you were talking about, was that when they finally came up with the fact that the enrollees had fifth-grade level education?

Mr. BERRY. Yes.

Senator CURTIS. You had two tracks, and one was never used?
Mr. HARDING. That is correct.

Senator CURTIS. Now, what was done with the other?

Mr. BERRY. These youths, various ones, completed the required work and qualified for employment.

Senator CURTIS. What was taught in that track?

Mr. BERRY. Senator Curtis, I would have to bring the instructors here. I thought this was the course of the inquiry that the committee had pursued. We have been called rather late in this presentation and it was never indicated exactly what was wanted of us because the staff was culling out the material that they wanted to present to the committee.

If the committee wants to have instructors brought here for a precise delineation of the course that was followed, we are prepared to do it. But I was never an instructor; I never visited the scene.

I do not pretend to be an expert in the field in which this experiment was designed.

The CHAIRMAN. May I make this observation?

You say you did not know what you would be asked. These hearings have been going on for quite a long time. You have the record of the hearings. You know the information that has been developed by the

committee.

Of course, you would naturally expect to be asked about anything that the hearings developed, the situation, or the information they contained.

Mr. BERRY. As simply as I can put it, the course of training was to cover a period of 6 weeks to 3 months, depending upon the response and the achievement or the performance of the trainees in the program. Senator CURTIS. What were they to teach during that time?

Mr. BERRY. Basic work skills designed to qualify them on the training programs in the industries that were identified as being willing to accept these on-the-job training programs.

Mr. HARDING. Fundamentally it was math and reading skills.
Senator CURTIS. Was that done?

Mr. BERRY. Yes; it was done.

Senator CURTIS. Every enrollee at Woodlawn was required to take a course in basic and elementary mathematics. Are you standing on that statement?

Mr. BERRY. They were expected to pursue this course

Senator CURTIS. I think we all expected it.

Mr. BERRY. And those who dropped out were eliminated.

Senator CURTIS. Isn't it true that many of them that didn't drop out didn't receive any instruction of any worthwhile nature at all? Mr. BERRY. I cannot say that is true.

Senator CURTIS. Can you say it is not true?

Mr. BERRY. I think it can be qualified that it is not true to the extent that there were a considerable number that did.

Senator CURTIS. I am quite disappointed that Mr. Harding cannot produce an instructor, provide names of instructors who as I said held regular daily classes, the subject matter, attendance records and provide us with the names of the people.

Mr. HARDING. You said a professional instructor, Senator.

Senator CURTIS. Yes.

Mr. HARDING. That was not the design of the project. They were not supposed to be instructing these kids. They were supposed to be instructing and guiding the instructors who were nonprofessionals. That is the reason we can't provide you with such a person.

Senator CURTIS. Even your version of it is quite a condemnation of spending this kind of money without at least one professional instructor that was there to teach them.

Mr. HARDING. It seems to me if you had one professional instructor you would have all professional instructors at the four centers. This project was designed with a different modus operandi.

Senator CURTIS. The nonprofessional instructors did instruct, isn't that a fact?

Mr. HARDING. Did instruct, yes, sir.

Senator CURTIs. You can't tell us right now what these nonprofessional instructors taught, say, in arithmetic?

Mr. HARDING. We can provide you with material that was provided to them for the purpose of instructing in arithmetic.

Senator CURTIS. But nobody knows whether they taught it. All the testimony we have here from the people on the inside was that they didn't do anything.

Mr. HARDING. Let me say, Senator, that we found when we sent people into those centers, we found, as well as other investigators, that there was a lot of nonactivity going on. This was one of the problems we had in the project.

Senator CURTIS. When you sent people in these centers and you found a lot of nonactivity going on did you also find some guns or some knowledge that weapons played a part?

Mr. HARDING. Somewhat, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Guns or weapons?

Mr. HARDING. No, sir, I have no knowledge of finding any guns. Senator CURTIS. You didn't know anything about that until these hearings?

Mr. HARDING. There was knowledge of a gun problem some time ago in connection with the Presbyterian Church. We knew about that, yes.

Senator CURTIS. Now what was the relation of Reverend Fry to the Woodlawn project?

Mr. HARDING. He had no official relationship with the Woodlawn project.

Senator CURTIS. What relation did his church have?

Mr. HARDING. His church was one of the facilities used to hire one of the four class facilities.

Senator CURTIS. And you paid for it?

Mr. HARDING. We paid for the space, yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. At one time you asked that the church facilities be no longer used?

Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir, we did.

Senator CURTIS. Why?

Mr. HARDING. Because we felt it was not a proper environment for the program.

Senator CURTIS. Why wasn't the First Presbyterian Church a proper environment for the program?

Mr. HARDING. There seemed to be too much other activity going on. Senator CURTIS. What other activity going on?

Mr. HARDING. A great deal of youth activity.

Senator CURTIS. Name them.

Mr. HARDING. I am not familiar with what activities-all I know, you asked me if we asked to take our program out of the church and I answered the question in the affirmative.

We did because it was the view of our people on the scene that this was not the best environment for the continuation of the program. Senator CURTIS. Now name those people.

Mr. HARDING. Mr. Porter on our staff was one.

Senator CURTIS. Is he here today?

Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir, he is.

Senator CURTIS. What is his first name?

Mr. HARDING. Dennis Porter.

Senator CURTIS. Who else?

Mr. HARDING. Mr. Holland, George Holland, who is not here, who was in our Chicago office.

Senator CURTIS. How about Mr. Fullmer?

Mr. HARDING. Mr. Fullmer, the investigator? Of course, he did make an inspection of that facility out there. I do not recall offhand whether he made a specific recommendation regarding the church

or not.

Senator CURTIS. Did Mr. Fullmer make any recommendation with reference to this?

Mr. HARDING. That is what I can't recall, Senator.

Senator CURTIs. Did Mr. Fullmer visit any of these classes, himself?
Mr. HARDING. It is my recollection he did, yes, Senator.
Senator CURTIS. Is he here today?

Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Did he file any reports with you?

Mr. HARDING. He did file reports; yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. What did those reports indicate as to what they observed in the centers, what he observed in the centers?

Mr. HARDING. My recollection of the contents of Mr. Fullmer's report are not as clear as it should be. It has been many weeks since I read them.

Senator CURTIS. Can you produce those reports?

Mr. HARDING. Senator, we have produced those reports.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want me to read from some of these reports?
Senator CURTIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is what the inspectors say about it.
Senator CURTIS. We were talking about Mr. Fullmer of OEO.

The CHAIRMAN. You were talking about whether they were teaching there or not?

Senator CURTIS. No. He said Mr. Fullmer visited the centers and made a report.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't have that.

Mr. HARDING. Senator Curtis, you will recall, sir, that those reports were submitted to the committee in executive session with the request that they not be made part of the record. If it would please the committee I would prefer they not be made part of the record.

Senator CURTIS. The contents are such that they should not be made part of the record?

Mr. HARDING. They are investigative reports within the agency, Senator, on which we afford confidentiality to informants, and we asked the chairman and the chairman was gracious enough to indi

cate

The CHAIRMAN. Certain reports have been received in executive session. Of course, they could not be released until the committee the committee can at any time in its discretion release them.

But there is other testimony that is in public session that refers to conditions out there and the reports you received about those conditions. Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Were the Rangers given any activity or funds for the purpose of buying their peace?

Mr. HARDING. No, sir.

Senator CURTIS. Do you recall that these reports, either from Mr. Fullmer or anyone else, carried any information about inactivity in the centers?

Mr. HARDING. My recollection, sir, is that we did have reports and I am not clear to the extent they were contained in Mr. Fullmer's report which was a rather comprehensive review.

I did receive reports indicating that upon visit to the centers there seemed to be a lack of productive activity going on in many of the centers, a low attendance in many of the centers and a general condition of disrepair.

Senator CURTIS. And you got such a report ?

Mr. HARDING. Yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. When did you get it?

Mr. HARDING. January 1968, it was filed.

Senator CURTIS. Did you ever have any information come to you concerning the use of drugs, Robitussin or anything else?

sir.

Mr. HARDING. I have read reports that made those allegations, yes,

Senator CURTIS. Did you get any reports from Mr. Fullmer or any other source concerning the possession of guns in the centers?

Mr. HARDING. I recall no reports indicating that there were guns in the possession of the trainees.

Senator CURTIS. Did any information ever come to you that enrollees had to pay kickbacks?

Mr. HARDING. I have heard that allegation; yes, sir.

Senator CURTIS. When did you first hear that?

Mr. HARDING. I first heard it sometime I think in the spring of 1968.