Mr. JOHNSON. Okay. My words are that it was teaching me, along with other blacks, that in order to move into the mainstream of American society, politically, economically, socially, and otherwise, that we have got to unite as blacks and move with a solid front just as every other Caucasian ethnic group has done in America in the great American tradition.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't want white people there at your black power meetings?

Mr. JOHNSON. We don't want the white people there.

The CHAIRMAN. According to you now the purpose of this program was to teach the Negro his identity?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And to point out to him the oppression he suffered all these years?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. He has to change and turn against the white people, is that right?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is not right.

The CHAIRMAN. What is right?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sir, my statement is that Negroes, being at the bottom of the barrel in this country, have got to unite as Negroes and launch massive voter registration drives, massive back-to-school campaigns, massive loyalty to each other in order to move into the system as other ethinc groups have done in this country, in the American tradition.

That is my statement.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. That is what the money was to be used for.

Was it used for that purpose according to your knowledge?

Mr. JOHNSON. To a great degree, yes. We did not achieve, and we are very candid about this, we did not achieve the measure of success that we had hoped for.

The CHAIRMAN. Why? You had the cooperation of all these groups there. According to the mayor they cooperated, they gave you every help they could. They gave you every encouragement. Why didn't you succeed?

Mr. JOHNSON. As our loyal white supporters were helping us to organize to launch this project the do-gooder white, who were worried about retribution and what-have-you, were organizing to see that this project was not successful.

The CHAIRMAN. Who organized to see that this was not successful? Mr. JOHNSON. I think the record, sir, will show that from many sources WYEAC came under attack.

The CHAIRMAN. Who organized to keep it from being a success? You just said they did. Now, who?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am not prepared to call names but I am prepared to talk about the system.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not prepared to call names. You are charged as an organization. Name one person or any group of persons who organized to keep this from being a success?

Mr. JOHNSON. I request your permission to consult with counsel at this point.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, consult your counsel and see if he can give you an answer.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead. See if he can give you an answer. (Witness consults counsel.)

The CHAIRMAN. Read the question, will you please.

(The pending question was read by the reporter.)

The CHAIRMAN. Let the record show that after long consultation with his counsel he gives the following answer. You may answer.

Mr. JOHNSON. My statement, sir, is that I don't feel that one person should be identified when there were many elements on the Delaware scene. I think it would be unfair, punitive to the person, whathave-you, although they might deserve the same, without giving a comprehensive list.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't want to give any of the names?

Mr. JOHNSON. I would prefer not to give the names. It would include some officials, et cetera, et cetera, and I am not here to lambaste.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you about some other things and see if you will give their names. We will find out what value your testimony is going to have. You don't want to give the names of those folks who organized against you?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am not here to lambaste any civic leadership in Delaware or political leadership. I am here to tell you the facts. The CHAIRMAN. That is why you have your lawyer. You have brought him up here. Let me ask you a question or two here.

Did some of the WYEAC folks contact you in the last 2 or 3 months? Mr. JOHNSON. Many times in the last 2 or 3 months.

The CHAIRMAN. Have they contacted you with threats to your life or to do you bodily harm!

Mr. JOHNSON. I have had no direct threats from any WYEAC personnel.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was it that beat you up a month or two ago? Was it not some of the WYEAC gang? Who was it that beat you up? Mr. JOHNSON. I was caught in the middle of a street fight trying to be a peacemaker in the middle of a confrontation.

The CHAIRMAN. Who beat you up?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was not beat up, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You got two black eyes, didn't you?
Mr. JOHNSON. No; I didn't. I never had two black eyes.

The CHAIRMAN. Just one?

Mr. JOHNSON. I had one black eye.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened to the other one? Did they discolor it?

Mr. JOHNSON. The one black eye I received occurred as something that was purely unrelated to anything here.

The CHAIRMAN. You are under oath.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am aware of that.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was it that came and put a gun to your head and threatened you 2 or 3 months ago?

Mr. JOHNSON. That has happened more than one time.

The CHAIRMAN. That has happened more than one time. Tell us about that. Was it some of the WYEAC group who did that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Nobody in WYEAC has ever put a gun to me. Nobody in the WYEAC organization has ever put a gun to my head.

The CHAIRMAN. Haven't you made the statement that on two occasions where you were participating in meetings with the WYEAC people that you were were threatened with bodily harm by WYEAC people who brandished guns? Haven't you made that statement?

Mr. JOHNSON. I have never made that statement that I was threatened by WYEAC people who brandished guns.

The CHAIRMAN. Were you threatened by them?

Mr. JOHNSON. There have been some things that could have been implied by threats.

The CHAIRMAN. What were they? Tell us about them.

Mr. JOHNSON. OK. It was as general and simple as this.

This is certainly not, I would like to make this clear for the record, this was not by the leadership of WYEAC. When I say leadership I am talking about the-in the persons of George Brown, William Hallman, Charles Miller, Lawrence Brown, or any of the higher echelon of WYEAC.

The elements in WYEAC, you know, at the youth worker and at the center level staff. The statements were, which could certainly be interpreted as threats, were that to the extent, something like, "You just make sure that the funds keep coming," you know.

The CHAIRMAN. They want you to make sure that the funds keep coming. Did they have a gun at that time?

Mr. JOHNSON. There was no gun at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. Who told you that?

Mr. JOHNSON. This statement was made as a group from the South Street area who were walking out of my office.

The CHAIRMAN. The Wiggins gang, wasn't it?

Mr. JOHNSON. In that group

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't it the Wiggins gang that is part of the Wilmington Youth Center?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am trying to give you the facts. The persons who were walking out of my office when I made the statement, "Merd" Wiggins, Theodorick Smiley.

The CHAIRMAN. Show the names. What Wiggins? South Street Center director, wasn't it?

Mr. JOHNSON. But I did not say that "Merd" Wiggins made the statement. I said these are two people in the South Street group that I could identify when the statement was made.

The CHAIRMAN. If you remember the statement as they walked out you ought to remember who made it. Who made it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do not remember, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You don't remember? Very well. Who was the other one that was there? Smiley? What is he? He is the center director and Wiggins was the assistant director. Those two were in the crowd when that statement was made to you?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. What had you been talking about while they were there?

Mr. JOHNSON. When they came to my office they came to get a check signed. I believe in this case, for a trip that was to be taken to Atlantic City.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that check signed on this fund?
Mr. JOHNSON. That was a check signed on this fund.
The CHAIRMAN. To take a trip to Atlantic City. For what?
Mr. JOHNSON. I believe on this occasion-

The CHAIRMAN. Was that another black power meeting?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir. This was to take a group of low-income residents to a picnic in either Wildwood or Atlantic City.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you hesitate to sign the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. JOHNSON. Our policy is that in the WYEAC organization I authorize no checks unless it is approved by WYEAC, the central office, in the person of the project director or whoever he designates. This check had not been approved by Mr. Brown.

If there is reason to question the legitimacy of the expenditure it is checked out with even other sources.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was the leader of the group that had that conference with you there in the office about this check? Who was it that did the talking to you in the office about the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Smiley is the director of that center.

The CHAIRMAN. Was he the one? Was he talking to you about it, trying to get you to sign the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. He is the one that asked me to sign the check.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you sign it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I did not sign it at that point until it was verified. I signed it later as it was verified, checked out through the office. The CHAIRMAN. Was there some heated discussion about it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, there was some-the discussion certainly was not cordial.

The CHAIRMAN. Not cordial. Now which one was it who said to you when they walked out, "You had better keep the money coming"? Mr. JOHNSON. I do not remember, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long ago has it been?

Mr. JOHNSON. Labor Day. To be exact I think it was a Labor Day trip. My staff tells me the week before Labor Day was the exact date of the trip.

The CHAIRMAN. That is less than 2 months ago.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know at the time you made the statement? Mr. JOHNSON. If I had to say which one-you know

The CHAIRMAN. Was it one of those two who made the statement? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; but I would not like to be--it would probably be one of those two.

The CHAIRMAN. At any rate, it is one of the two. You remember that much. Very well. You may proceed.

Is there anything else?

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many times was a gun held on you by a WYEAC member, on how many occasions?

Mr. JOHNSON. There has never been an occasion when a member of WYEAC held a gun on me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Were you ever in the office when somebody had a gun pointed against you across the table?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not in the WYEAC office or not in my office.

The CHAIRMAN. In what office and where? Where was it?

Mr. JOHNSON. This was in a building on the West Side. I don't remember what building it is.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Who held that gun against you across the table. Mr. JOHNSON. This person is Bill Ward, who is not a member of WYEAC.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is he part of the South Street group?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Was there another occasion when somebody had a gun on your back and you took it away from him?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did somebody else, say Mr. Wiggins, have a gun pointed at you and say, "Drop that gun"?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; it was not Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Who was it, Smiley?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; it was not anyone in the WYEAC organization. Mr. ADLERMAN. Who was it?

Mr. JOHNSON. At this point I request counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; please do.

(Witness consults counsel.)

The CHAIRMAN. Let the record show he is consulting counsel as to whether he should give the name of the party.

Let the record show that after a long consultation the question is repeated.

Repeat the question, Mr. Reporter.

(The pending question was read by the reporter.)

The CHAIRMAN. All I am asking for is the name of the person who held the gun on you.

Mr. JOHNSON. My reluctance, sir, or my reservation has nothing to do with withholding information from your committee. At this point, as I just shared with my counsel, my family never knew that any of these things happened. My wife reads this, "This is what this guy is going through," and that kind of thing. That is my greatest concern at this point: how my wife reacts when she reads of the experiences I have had.

My statement is that the person who held the gun on me was not an employee of WYEAC, was not an employee of any of the antipoverty

programs.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you one other question. I don't care whether you tell us or not. You say you don't want your wife to hear it. Of course, she will find out.

Were WYEAC members present at the time? Name the WYEAC members that were present at the time this occurred.

Mr. JOHNSON. At the time this occurred there was Scotty Brown, Charles Miller

The CHAIRMAN. Charles Miller was what?

Mr. FIALKEWICZ. Youth organizer.

The CHAIRMAN. At $7,700 a year. Who was the other? Brown? What Brown?

Mr. JOHNSON. Herman Brown.

The CHAIRMAN. Herman Brown is the northeast center director. Those two were present. Who else?