it was not. That looked as if the inspectors were responsible to the Government. But he would frankly state to the House that he considered that Parliament had a perfect right to alter the conditions of the grant, and to say that for the future it should not be given except upon certain express conditions.

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU asked if the religious bodies had consented to let their contracts with the State be broken ?

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, they did not consider themselves bound to ask the religious bodies, and they had not done so. But he knew that there were many hardworking clergymen of the Church of England, of all schools of thought, who on the whole supported the new plan. There was one other remark of the noble lord's he would notice. The noble lord asked whether he would consider all the elementary schools in the country as making a part in national education. He had already said that he was prepared so to consider them if they would allow the visits of inspectors; if not, they would take no account of them whatever. He had only one other remark to make, and that was upon the subject of compulsory education. He was quite aware the friends of compulsion would hold that the measure lacked completeness, because it was not extended over the whole kingdom. But his hon. friend must bear this in mind, that the principle was new. He believed it would be a surprise to the country to-morrow when they found this principle of compulsion in the Bill. Now they would not advance those principles if they attempted to go one foot beyond where public opinion was prepared to follow. And public opinion was not to be gathered at public meetings, where people voted for what would not apply to themselves-they must consider those to whom it might apply, and who might find indirect means of thwarting it. Then it might be said why have it at all? For two reasons; to take away from a district an excuse for not making provision, and to prevent a willing district from providing means which were not made use of. He had now only to repeat his gratitude for the manner in which the measure had been received by the House. He could assure hon. gentlemen that he would bear their various observations in mind. His intention was to take the second reading of the Bill upon the 14th of March. If the House assented to the second reading there was no intention to commit the Bill before Easter.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I entirely recognise the force of what has been said as to its not being desirable to discuss the details of the measure until we have the Bill before us. It must, however, be some time before it can be fully discussed, and in the meantime it will go to the country, and points in it will probably be better understood from explanations given in this House than from a perusal of the text. I think it is really important that an answer should be given to a question put by the hon. member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert) with reference to the point touched upon by the right hon. baronet the member for Droitwich (Sir John Pakington) which was not clearly understood. We understand that this is an attempt to engraft upon the present system an enlarged system, and I think it is an admirable line for the Bill to take; but the attempt is one which will involve the Government in considerable difficulties of detail. One of these difficulties arises in this way. The Government proposes to leave those districts in which education appears to be satisfactory as they are, and we have had it explained that in those districts there shall be no school boards constituted. We are told that the school board is to have the power of compelling the attendance of children; that would apply, of course, to those districts in which it is found by inspectors that the present state of things is not satisfactory, and in which school boards are formed on the representative principle. Then you have the case of a district in which you find there is ample provision made at present for its wants-that there are a good school and good teachers, that the education is of a proper character, and that, speaking generally, the school is well attended. I want to know, and the hon. member for Oldham put the questionWill the managers of that school have the power of calling upon the children to attend, and compelling them to attend?

MR. W. E. FORSTER: I beg pardon for not having answered the question, but I thought I had done so by implication. We give the power of compulsion only to school boards, and in the case put there is no board. In a district in which the educational need has been proved, if it has been supplied within the year we allow for its supply, there will be no school board, and the compulsory clause will not apply. There may be instances of a district in which there are public elementary schools managed, as at present by voluntary mana

gers, as well as schools under the school board; and in such a case none but the school board would have the power of compulsion.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I do not wish to discuss the question; I only wish to point out how the difficulty may arise in many cases. You may have a school district in which everything that can be done by voluntary effort is done; you may have a parish of 500, in which there ought to be 200 children at school; and 180 may come and twenty may stay away. You do not propose to give the power of compulsion over those twenty. Are you or are you not to say that this is a district in which you have a satisfactory provision? I do not wish to press the right hon. gentleman to give us more details now; but I hope that, by answers to questions or in some way, this and one or two other points may be elucidated, so that the country may understand what the particular bearings of the Bill are upon those points, before the discussion takes place upon the second reading. In a matter of this sort, a great deal depends upon carrying the feeling of the country with you, and this will have to be done if you are to pass a satisfactory measure. I am glad to see a disposition manifested on both sides to accept the scheme of the right hon. gentleman. There is much in his statement for which we have to thank him personally, and the Government in general. I can assure the right hon. gentleman that I am disposed to give every possible assistance in order to get the Bill put into a satisfactory shape; but there will, of course, be questions of detail requiring the most careful consideration, and it is essential, as I have said, to carry the opinion of the country with us if we are to accomplish the difficult and delicate task of welding a number of systems into a single one that will work harmoniously and beneficially.

MR. WHALLEY doubted whether there was sufficient feeling on the subject in the country to enable Parliament to legislate; but even assuming that there was, the right hon. gentleman in his admirable and lucid exposition had not shown in what respect the present system had failed, nor how his measure would remedy that failure. Under the circumstances, he thought it would be highly expedient that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. His experience of conferring education upon children irrespective of their parents had not been satisfactory; the result was not

the diminution of crime or of pauperism; there did not follow any of the effects which we desired to achieve by a national system of education.

Motion agreed to.

Bill to provide for public Elementary Educa

tion in England and Wales, ordered to be brought

in by Mr. WILLIAM EDWARD FORSTER and Mr. Secretary BRUCE.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 33.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
February 22nd, 1870.

EDUCATION-CERTIFICATED SCHOOL

MASTERS.-QUESTION.

MR. ASSHETON CROSS said, he rose to ask the Vice-President of the Council, How far any change in the system of certificates to schoolmasters will be rendered necessary by his Bill? And if he contemplates any alteration in the management of or in the grants to Training Schools; and, if so, to what extent ?

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, in reply, that in the Education Bill no allusion was made directly to certificated masters; but Clause 7 provided that, after a certain date, all schools would receive grants of money, subject to certain regulations and conditions.

In the 83rd clause it was stated that one of the conditions referred to in Clause 7 was a compliance with minutes issued from time to time by the authority of Parliament, and sanctioned by Parliament. Of course, if the Bill passed into law, as he trusted it might, it would be the duty of the Government to reconsider the existing conditions, with the view of adapting them to the altered circumstances of the case; but until the Bill became law it would be impossible to say how the conditions would finally stand. Certainly the Government would consider with attention the modes in which certificates were given, and probably this was a matter in which revision would be required. There was no reference to the training schools in the Bill; but the management and the amount of the grants to these schools were subjects which, after the passing of the Bill, would have to be duly considered.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, I
February 24th, 1870.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION-SCHOOL

MASTERS. QUESTION.

SIR PERCY BURRELL said, he wished to ask the Vice-President of the Council, Whether, in pursuance of the intimation to that effect which he gave him in the course of last session, he will make provision in the Bill on Elementary Education, with a view to prevent schoolmasters of parochial or endowed parochial schools from holding or exercising appointments o employments calculated to interfere with efficient execution of their duty as schoolmasters of the said schools?

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, in reply, that the question of the hon. gentleman referred not so much to the Bill before Parliament as to the conditions upon which the public money should be given for the purposes of education. He must repeat the answer that he gave the night before last to the hon. member for South-west Lancashire (Mr. Assheton Cross), that upon the Bill becoming law, and the Government becoming aware of the precise form in which it had passed, they would reconsider all matters in relation to grants.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,

February 25th, 1870.

QUESTION.

MR. W. E. FORSTER said, in reply, EDUCATION-INSPECTION OF SCHOOLS. that he could not recollect having given the hon. baronet the intimation to which he referred, and had tried to refresh his memory by looking into Hansard, but could not find any mention of it. With regard to the question itself, he did not think the Government would be prepared to bring in a general provision of the nature suggested. The masters of endowed schools would be dealt with by the Commissioners acting under the Endowed Schools Act of last year, and the case of the masters of parochial schools would be left to those who paid them. If, however, the hon. baronet would bring the matter forward when the Education Bill was in Committee it would receive his best attention.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
February 24th, 1870.

EDUCATION GRANTS TO SCHOOLS.
QUESTION.

MR. C. DALRYMPLE said, he wished to ask the Vice-President of the Council, Whether in poor and populous districts, where it is reported that school accommodation is insufficient, the Government, for the sake of stimulating local efforts, will be prepared to offer grants for building on a more liberal scale than at present during the year of grace allowed to school districts under the Bill upon Elementary Education ?

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he wished to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education, Whether the words in the Elementary Education Bill, "The school shall be open at all times to the inspection of any of Her Majesty's Inspectors," are intended to apply to the inspection of those schools only which may hereafter be built under the Act, and not to schools which now exist and are secured by trust deeds which have been framed in accordance with Articles 13 and 30 of the Revised Code; or, on the other hand, whether it is intended to obtain powers to send any one of the inspectors (of whatever religious denomination he may be) to inspect the schools of a different religious denomination; and, if the latter is the intention, to ask whether it will not be necessary to override by Act of Parliament the school trust deeds which restricted the inspection to those inspectors who have been appointed for the purpose in the way prescribed by the Revised Code and various Orders in Council?

MR. W. E. FORSTER replied that the 82nd section of the Education Bill provided that after the 31st March, 1872, no grant either for building purposes or for an annual allowance could be given to any school that was not a public elementary school. In another clause there was provision made for the acceptance of any inspector of whatever denomination sent down by the Privy Council. He did not

HOUSE OF COMMONS, the borough 207,165. The noble lord would