as at present. In regard to the third ques-quence of the necessity for tion, any new schools which would be thus formed would be wholly independent of school boards and the local rates unless aid were granted by the school boards under Clause 22, in which case the school board might assist them in common with the present denominational schools. It would be observed his reply was limited by the supposition that the present conditions of the Parliamentary grant would not be changed. He had already stated in answer to several questions, that if the Bill became law it would become the duty of the Government to reconsider the conditions on which aid should be given out of the taxes, but he could not conceive that the present or any Government would change the condition contained in Section 22 of the Code, that in all aid given out of the public funds towards the building of new schools such and should not be given unless their religious denomination was suitable to the families supplying the scholars. He could not conceive that in any new revision of the Code, that condition would be departed from. He might add, that condition would apply to building grants to school boards as well as to private individuals. HOUSE OF COMMONS March 14th, 1870. ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL. confining himself mainly to the subject of his amendment to omit noticing a considerable number of points in the Bill which to him were of the greatest interest. He should have wished to point out that if it had been possible it would have been a great improvement if the Bill had contained some provision for the formation of a separate department of education, and also for increasing the number of training colleges in the country, where the masters would have been trained who would be wanted for the numerous schools that would have to be provided. He could have wished also to point out a reason why it would have been well not to give a year's grace to denomi national schools, why school boards should be appointed everywhere, that those boards should be appointed not by vestries, but by the occupiers in school districts voting by ballot, and why, considering how heavy existing rates are, we should have thrown one-half of the cost of school boards on the Consolidated Fund; why compulsory attendance should have been made immediate and universal, and why admission to all elementary schools ought to be free. But upon all these interesting points he must omit to dwell, in order that he might оссиру the House in justifying his amendment. In doing so it would be necessary that he should review the whole of what was called the religious difficulty. The amendment that he had moved did not in words refer to more than one portion of it. It stated that it was inadvisable that this religious difficulty should be relegated to (Mr. William Edward Forster, Mr. Secretary the school boards; but it did not make any Bruce.) [BILL 33.] SECOND READING, Order for second reading read. Motion made, and question proposed "That the Bill be now read a second time." (Mr. W. E. Forster.) MR. DIXON, in moving the amendment of which he had given notice, said, he moved the amendment with feelings of deep regret-regret that there should be occasion for an amendment, which he admitted to be one of great importance-regret because he was sorry even to appear to be in opposition to this Government measure, to which he had looked forward so long with hope-and further, with regret, beause he would be prevented, in conse reference to the manner in which the religious difficulty ought to be settled by the House. But he could not treat one portion of the subject adequately without referring to the other, and therefore he proposed to state his view on the whole subject. He called the attention of the House to the enormous change that would be brought about by this Bill in the relations of the State to education, and through education to religion. In a few years, under the operation of the Bill, we should have school boards in almost every district of the country. He believed that the Vice-President of the Council admitted that this would be the case; and it was natural that it should be so, because in those districts where the Bill did not provide for the immediate formation of these boards, the present school managers, feeling that if the boards were to be formed they would have preponderating influence on those boards, they would be anxious that they should be formed, in order to throw on them the burden of maintaining the schools. Besides this, attendance would become compulsory throughout the country, and the basis of our school system would have been removed. It would no longer rest on voluntaryism, it would rest on the national purse, and instead of hundreds of thousands of pounds being voted by Parliament, we should find that millions would have to be voted out of the rates and taxes for the education of the country. These were great and important changes, and they affected this religious question to a great degree. Some thought that the religious question was scarcely felt to be a religious difficulty, that the religious difficulty scarcely existed. But that was not the case. It was true that we only voted £500,000 per annum for our schools. But, notwithstanding that, he would quote from a speech of Dr. Rigg, only a few days ago, to show that even now this difficulty was felt, and felt to a considerable extent. [The hon. member quoted accordingly.] Now, if this religious difficulty existed, although the connection between the State and education was so slight, what might we expect to be the state of the case when there were school rates levied all over the country for the purpose of assisting education, when compulsory attendance would be also general, and when the Dissenter was called on to pay for, and send his child to a Church of England school, when the Protestant was called on to pay for and send his child to a Roman Catholic school, or a Roman Catholic to a Protestant school? This religious difficulty, under these circumstances, will assume much greater proportions. How did the Bill propose to meet it? It was said that where there was no school board formed the present religious teaching was to be continued, when the boards were formed the character of the teaching was to be decided by those school boards, and that in all cases where an objection was taken to this religious teaching a Conscience Clause was to come into operation as a protection to the religious conscience of the parent. He believed that the meaning of this was that in towns there would be in most cases, if not in all, contests for seats at the Town Councils, and contests within the Town Councils for seats at the school boards, for it would be felt that upon these contests would depend the re ligious character of the education of the children of the town; in rural districts the religious teaching would take the colour of the dominant sect of the district, usually that of the squire and the parson. Now, in one-half of the country parishes at the present time-he was speaking roughly, it might be more-but in about one-half at the present moment no Government aid was granted; in the remaining half the grants amounted to about one-third of the total cost of the schools. Henceforward all these schools would receive grants out of the rates and taxes amounting to at least twothirds-it might be in some cases to the whole sum-and in every one of those cases in the rural districts they would find that the minority would have to pay for the religious teaching of the majority. Although it was true that the Government and the ratepayers would only pay nominally for the secular teaching, it must be borne in mind that the religious teaching of the school would have no existence but for this secular basis. It appeared that the effect of Clause 7 would be to materially strengthen denominationalism, and he thought that the object ought, rather to have been to check its growth, and weaken its influence, so that it might ultimately vanish from the land. If he were correct in that opinion, that denominationalism in England would be strengthened, what would be the result in Ireland? It followed as a matter of necessity, or at any rate of justice, that it must be sanctioned there. He thought it would have been wiser to have introduced the Irish national system into England, rather than to export English denominationalism into Ireland. Had the principles of the Bill combined literary and moral instruction, with separate religious teaching, he did not think there would have been any opposition to the Bill; there certainly would not have been much on the ground of the religious difficulty. Under existing circumstances they would not reach any solid foundation short of separate religious teaching in all Government-aided denominational schools, taking care that the absentees from that religious teaching should not be liable to any disability, and that in all schools aided by rates the teaching should be entirely unsectarian or it might be secular. would point out to the House what might perhaps be considered a warning, that there was a still lower depth than that. It might be, if this agitation should be continued for a lengthened period, that a party would arise in this country with a great and He The growing influence that might ultimately | all Christian dogmas, but in an unsectarian prevail, which might demand that in every system you would not have to exclude school aided by the Government there should be exclusively secular education. This was not what he asked now; it was one of the possibilities of the future. He knew that the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education had stated that neither the religious nor the irreligious difficulty should be allowed to stand in the way of the education of the people. Now, this was a bold statement; but he imagined that the Vice-President of the Council had misunderstood the nature and extent of the public feeling upon this question. ["No, no!" He would give the House some of the experience which he himself had gained during the agitation of the last few months. One of the objects of the organisation with which he was connected was to elicit the opinion of the country upon all the questions which were likely to arise in connection with this subject, in order to obtain a basis upon which legislators might form correct opinions. He approached the religious question without any prejudice whatever. At least, as he was a Churchman, he approached it without any of the prejudices of the Dissenters. When, fourteen months ago, he called some friends together to consider whether the time had not arrived for some public movement in favour of education, they considered how this religious question should be treated. They were men of all creeds, and they came to the conclusion to recommend to the country that education in our national schools should be unsectarian. When the Education League became known to the country, they were asked what they meant by "unsectarian." They answered that they meant that in the schools there should be taught no creeds, catechisms, or tenets that were peculiar to any sect; but no sooner had they furnished that answer than they received numberless questions as to what they meant about the Bible, and they answered that they were not prepared to ask for an Act to exclude from the schools only one book, and that book the Bible; but they added, out of respect to the Roman Catholics, that the reading of it should be before or after the ordinary school hours. His own desire was that no more of religion should be excluded from the schools than was absolutely necessary; but then came the question, how much must be excluded? The difference between an unsectarian and a secular system appeared to be this-that in both you would exclude Christian precepts. He had never been Lord Harrowby, who was President of two great Union conferences at Manchester and Birmingham, said that if they gave assistance to denominational education generally, the system must be extended to Roman Catholics, that there was no use struggling against it. He (Mr. Dixon) found similar sentiments everywhere, that Protestants and members of the Church of Rome united upon the same platform, and Archdeacon Hamilton, at Newcastle, exultantly declared that the Church of England, the Church of Rome, and the Wesleyan body, hand in hand, would smash the League. Now, if his interpretation of the position of the Churches was correct, if the Churches held that they were fighting for religion, and meant by religion the teaching of religious dogmas in all our schools-if, for the sake of that, they were willing to destroy the Irish system, he would ask the House to consider what would be the effect of the operation of the 7th clause of the Bill. He thought that the first result would be to fasten the teaching of religious dogmas upon every school in every district in which there was a dominant section, and this would be to devote the public funds to the maintenance of these dogmas, and if, as many believed, any Conscience Clause they could imagine would be inoperative, the children of the minority would be taught a religion to which their parents objecte, and the minority would be forced to pay for the teaching of such doctrines. In all these cases there would be created sectarian strife, and there would be deferred for an indefinite period the attainment of perfect and complete religious equality. He warned the House that this was a subject of great importance. Already the tocsin had been sounded and the forces were mustering; and it would be found that the Churches were on one side, and the Nonconformist bodies on the other. Which would be likely to prevail? If they consulted history they would not be left in much doubt; and behind these armies there stood an enfranchised people, and the people had always given their votes in favour of equality. If the clause were to be passed by the House in its present shape he did not think that we should have peace in England until the Churches had laid down their arms defeated. It had been already whispered to him that if the clause should pass then, at every future election in the boroughs to be a Dissenter would be a qualification for a candidate, and to be a Churchman would be a disqualification in the eyes of the Liberal party. But they were told that, although in nearly every school there might be religious teaching based on dogmas, never theless efficient protection would be given by a stringent Conscience Clause. The Conscience Clause had been tried and found wanting, and had been finally rejected by the Nonconformists. It did not really give the protection it professed, and the poor were frequently unable to avail themselves of it, because the influence of their superiors in social position was too strong to be resisted. Moreover, how was it to be worked? Its inherent evil was that many parents would not dare to avail themselves of it; and it was not right in the agricultural districts to ask the people to say yes or no to this important question. In the thousands of small schools in the country districts there was but one room in the school, and where were the children to go while the religious teaching was being conducted? He thought a timetable Conscience Clause was the only one that would work. There ought to be separate religious instruction apart from the secular teaching, easy for the children to come to and stay away from, and no disabilities should attach to any children who absented themselves. It might be said that the illegitimate influence he condemned might still operate, though the religious teaching was given at a separate time; and he dared say in some cases it would be so; but then they must make that influence as small as possible, and defend the children from it as far as they could. If it were urged that after all the difference between the two different modes of working the Conscience Clause could not be great, then there would be all the less for the Government to concede in consenting to a time-table Conscience Clause. Unless given and received voluntarily, the influence of religious teaching was weakened, if not lost. It had been said that the result of the opinions advocated by the League would lead to wholly secular, and, therefore, "godless schools. But supposing that the schools should become secular, would that really be so great an evil? He hoped that the hon. member for Carlisle would lay before the House his experience on the subject, which would show that in the large secular schools with which he was connected the religious influence was more distinctly impressed on the scholars than in other cases. He had received a letter from a very competent authority in Ireland confirmatory of the same view, and the lan guage of the Rev. Mr. Cox, an eminent Nonconformist divine, and of the Bishop | doubt as to the public feeling. But if the of Ely, pointed in the same direction. He Government should think that the manifeswould repeat his objections to the manner tations which had been lately made upon in which the Bill dealt with the religious this most important clause had been of such difficulty. It appeared to him that where- a character that it was advisable some kind ever a school board was formed, as it would of declaration should be made, and if that be in nearly every district, there would be, declaration held out a hope that the evils or might be, a contest for sectarian pre- he had pointed out would be seriously condominance; and wherever one sect was sidered with a view to their removal, then predominant in a school district there the he should feel that the object for which colour of that sect would be necessarily the amendment had been placed upon the given to the religious teaching of the school. paper had been gained. And when he Now, the object of his amendment was to took into consideration those admirable prodeclare that that was a fatal blot in the visions of the Bill which declared that Bill. He hoped, before they went into in this country efficient schools should be Committee, the Government would come brought to the door of every child, and to the determination that the clauses should that attendance should be made compulbe considerably modified, and that it should sory-if he could only feel that the Governnot be left to school boards to decide this ment would deal with the religious difficulty religious question-a decision that could in a manner more in accordance with the only be arrived at after much strife, and, expectations of the Nonconformists, he he feared, much religious animosity. He should have the conviction that the Governtrusted that by leaving the question to the ment would receive as their well-merited House to decide, it would resolve it by de- reward, a nation's gratitude. The hon. claring that all rate-aided schools should member concluded by moving his resobe unsectarian, and that all other elementary lution. public schools should have the religious teaching separately given. He had no doubt he should be asked, why not leave this question to be debated in Committee. Why take the unusual and grave step of moving an amendment to the second reading? He would have preferred to have put an amendment of a minor character upon the notice paper, but he believed this was the only manner in which he could bring the subject forward now, and he was anxious to lose no time in doing so, in order that by an immediate, a pointed, and a direct reference to it, this question might gain an importance which otherwise would not be given to it. He had watched, as far as he could, the indications that the Government chose to give as to their views upon this question; but he had not yet received an impression sufficiently favourable with reference to their probable action. He was sure there would be a feeling of deep disappointment throughout the country unless this, the first, occasion was taken for expressing very decided and strong views as to the manner in which the Government had thought well to treat the religious difficulty. If the Government should not think it right to make any kind of declaration, then it would be for the country, during the short period that might intervene between the second reading and the Committee, to express its opinion in such a manner that the House might have no MR. ILLINGWORTH, in seconding the amendment, said, that three great measures had been laid on the table of the House by the present Government during the present Parliament-the Irish Church Bill, the Land Bill, and the Education Bill--and it was curious to observe that all these Bills were limited in their application. This Bill was limited to England, but as the two other Bills must exercise a powerful influence on another part of the empire, he felt that the decision at which the House might arrive upon this Bill would operate powerfully not only in England, but also in Ireland and Scotland. For his part, if he thought that we should have a final settlement of the question on a religious basis, giving one religious body a preference, he would extend to the Irish a privilege which we claimed for ourselves. It was impossible that the Government in considering this question should not take into account the existing schools, which were both large in number and were already doing a good work. But any measure to be complete must be of another character. The denominations had been at work a great number of years, and had done as much as with the machinery at their disposal could be expected; but it was impossible to make adequate provision for the educational destitution of the country without compulsory powers, and unless the State took the matter more directly in hand, |