There are only five of us now, as you recall. And as for Governor Battle, I have never heard him say that he intended to resign. His comment, as I understand it, was that he had no comment on the matter.

May I say further that

Senator JOHNSTON. When you say not resign, you mean until the time of office runs out?

Mr. STOREY. That is the only commitment that we have now, as I see it, sir.

Senator JOHNSTON. You have made no comment in regard to what happens after that day, should the Commission's life be extended? Mr. STOREY. You mean that I made personally? Yes, sir.

I have been asked a time or two, and I have said that, even if it were tended to me, I doubt if I would consider reappointment. But again I say that would depend on legislative commitments and otherwise.

Senator JOHNSTON. Has the Commission taken any stand whatsoever in asking that the Commission's life be extended?

Mr. STOREY. On the contrary, sir, it has not. We think that is a matter for Congress. Too, since we consider ourselves quasi-judicial officers, until we have evaluated and made our recommendations any statement we might make about pending legislation, such as you had this morning, is entirely premature, and would not be well considered. It is not that we are trying to avoid our responsibilities.

Senator JOHNSTON. That is all.

Senator CARROLL. As long as this issue has been opened, in the same news article that Senator Johnston has mentioned there is a statement of the chairman, John A. Hannah:

There is no question we would like to be freed of our responsibility if Congress extends the Commission.

Is that the consensus of the opinion of the Commission?

Mr. STOREY. Well, it speaks for itself, sir. I do not want to say what other members think. May I say this, sir, in reply to your question?

I happen to know that not one of us sought this position. I happen to know that most all of us were persuaded to take it.

I happen to know that we thought, and it was represented, that it probably would not take much time, but it is a terribly time-consuming matter; not only the formal meetings here, but there are the letters that you get, the telephone calls, the questions, the demands; it is tremendously time-consuming.

Senator CARROLL. I did not quite understand the telegrams you referred to. Does it mean they are willing to stay on if Congress should extend

Mr. STOREY. I did not read the telegrams. I have them here if you would like it.

Senator CARROLL. It is not necessary; the substance of it—————

Mr. STOREY. I have the telegrams from-I have this one from Governor Carlton. The substance of it is that-I will just read Governor Carlton's telegram, if I might:

This is to assure you that I concur wholeheartedly in your denial of the implication that the Commission is dissatisfied with its problems with which it deals. My firm intention is to remain on the Commission until its job of fact

finding and reporting is completed on September 9. To discuss my intention to serve beyond November 9 when the Commission is scheduled to dissolve would be presumptuous of me. We have a useful and important function to perform and I am delighted with the progress already made by the Commission and its staff. It is signed "Doyle E. Carlton."

Senator CARROLL. Senator Ervin?

Senator ERVIN. If Senator Carroll will pardon an interruption, it strikes me that the question of whether a person would accept an appointment to a position when he does not know whether the position is going to exist or whether he is going to be tendered an appointment to that position in case it should exist, is just about on a par with asking a girl whether she would marry a certain fellow in case he should propose to her.

Mr. STOREY. Well, you have summed it up better than I could, sir. The only reason I mentioned this is there has been some statement, as I understand, which has appeared in the press about some alleged dissension or frustration among the commissioners. That I have not observed, and I think I can say without question that all five of us are dedicated to finishing the job we undertook, which was a 2-year job, and beyond that there are no commitments.

Senator CARROLL. I can understand your desire not to become an advocate on matters which you deem to be quasi-judicial, but couldn't you express an opinion as to the desirability of extending this Commission beyond September because of the importance of the work it has to do?

Mr. STOREY. Well, Mr. Chairman, if I might step out of the role of whatever official position I have, and comment purely personally and purely individually, I would not mind commenting.

I would say (a) it would depend upon what legislation, if any, was passed in the future; for example, I notice there is legislation providing for conciliation plans and so on; and (b) obviously we cannot complete in a very satisfactory manner inquiries into all of the alleged violations of civil rights or the questions that might ensue. You are conscious, of course, that the clear mandate is to investigate any voting complaints in writing under oath; that is definite.

Second, you delegated to us the authority to ascertain the legal developments in this field. We are doing the best we can and I think we will have a pretty good report, but obviously we cannot cover all legal developments.

In the last place, we are asked to appraise the laws and policies of the Federal Government in the field of alleged denial of equal protection. Obviously, we cannot finish all of that.

I happened to serve for 2 years as a member of the Hoover Commission and we did not feel that we had covered all that was included in the mandate.

Now I have rambled around, but, as a private citizen, if there is further legislation passed, I do not see any reason why there would not be a good deal left for some Commission of this type to carry forward.

Senator CARROLL. Do I understand, then that this is such a broad field, such a vast field, even on the three categories to which the Commission has directed its attention-voting, education, and housingthat the field is so vast it could hardly be touched within the time period that it had to work on the problem?

Mr. STOREY. I will just say this, sir: We thought that in order to do a fair and respectable job we must necessarily limit the fields of inquiry, and we chose what we thought were three foremost and important fields.

I might add that some of these advisory committees have assumed other responsibilities.

My own State advisory committee has assumed an inquiry into six fields because they felt that they knew the facts and could probably cover them.

Senator CARROLL. I put the question a little differently. Now that we have activated or the Commission has activated some citizens down at the State level, do you think, speaking personally now, it would be sort of a bad thing to shut them off now, that they ought to continue for a while in this vast field?

Mr. STOREY. I might add, sir, that we have advised all of them, and it was their condition of acceptance, that their responsibility would terminate as of the date the Commission responsibility terminated. There is no obligation for them to serve beyond that.

But I might add that some three or four hundred citizens who have gone into these inquiries, and who are more or less acquainted with them, know there would be a great deal left to be done if Congress in its wisdom saw fit to extend or to create some other type of continuing body.

Senator CARROLL. Thank you.

Senator JOHNSTON. Can you tell this subcommittee whether or not Dr. Hannah is going to appear before this subcommittee?

Mr. STOREY. I cannot say, sir. I will tell some Commission secrets. We all have other responsibilities and we try to meet the requests of Congress on appropriations and other matters; and the Chairman simply said to me, "I will go over to the House and appear as much as necessary there if you will go to the Senate," and I said, "If that is your wish, I will be happy to do it."

Senator JOHNSTON. I think he should come before us for the reason that he has been quoted in speaking, and also you have his telegram there, which you might as well read.

Mr. STOREY. No, sir; I do not have Dr. Hannah's telegram.
Senator JOHNSTON. He was not one of those who telegramed?

Mr. STOREY. Mr. Tiffany has, if I might add, Senator Johnston, talked with Dr. Hannah on this matter since this publicity came out. Mr. Tiffany can probably throw some light on it.

Mr. TIFFANY. That is so, Senator.

I asked our Chairman for his comment, and he said that he had also been called in this regard, and that in reply he had made the statement that he had no comment to make at this time for two

reasons:

First, he thought it was premature and presumptuous on his part to assume that the Congress would extend the life of the Commission, and, secondly, he thought it was presumptuous for him to assume that the President would ask him to serve again if the life of the Commission were extended; and on those grounds he said he had no comment. He thought it was pure speculation.

Senator CARROLL. Any further questions at this point, Senator Johnston?

40361-59-pt. 1-17

Senator Ervin?

Senator ERVIN. Dean, I want to say that I, for one, appreciate the emphasis you place on the fact that this question of the equal protection of the laws is such a broad field.

As a matter of fact-I should say as a matter of law-a question under the equal-protection-of-the-laws clause could possibly arise at every point and in every area in which a State or a county or a municipality or other official of a subdivision of a State undertakes to act in an official capacity with respect to any person; is that not true? Mr. STOREY. That is true; yes, sir, it is an endless process. Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir.

In other words, it is something that is coextensive with the entire field in which a State or political subdivision of a State is empowered either to legislate or to apply legislation.

Mr. STOREY. Yes, sir. It is a colossal question, of course, this question of equal protection.

Senator ERVIN. Yes.

Mr. STOREY. We have, I might add, many people who write in about alleged infringement of personal rights as opposed to official rights, and all of those things we have to construe from time to time the best we can in the fast moving situation that we have.

Senator ERVIN. For example, even a person who applies for a license to drive a taxicab in a little town could very well allege that he had been discriminated against as compared with others in like circumstances in the granting of those licenses, couldn't he? It could arise in that field.

Mr. STOREY. Well, as you mentioned this morning, of course, there are many facets of it, many, many facets of it.

Senator ERVIN. As I pointed out this morning, volume XVI-A of "Corpus Juris Secundum" shows that a mere discussion in a summary fashion of questions that could arise under the equal-protection-ofthe-laws clause of the 14th amendment starts on page 295 and runs through page 534, making 238 pages necessary merely to discuss in general fashion these questions.

It gives some indication of the extent of this subject.

Mr. STOREY. As a lawyer like yourself, I have had to thumb through a good many of those.

Another illustration, for example, is one where we held a housing meeting in New York. One reason we went there was because they had many laws and regulations both on the State and municipal level in that particular field.

You have the question of, and the argument about, what about private housing and all of that, whether or not there is an alleged denial of equal protection, and that is why we have decided to go to some other cities where you do not have the laws, you do not have the regulations, to see what the situation is there and, of course, all those facts affect not only housing but other related matters, too.

Senator ERVIN. I want to commend the Commission for setting up advisory bodies on the local and State level because I think people living in a community usually know what is going on in their community. Frankly, some of the hearings I have seen conducted in this general field seem to have a peculiar way of concealing rather than revealing the truth.

For example, in the hearings in 1957 a complaint was offered in evidence making some very serious allegations of the denial of the right to vote in a precinct in North Carolina.

Unfortunately, the people who introduced the complaint containing those allegations inadvertently failed to introduce the answer which denied those allegations; and inadvertently failed to introduce the verdict which rejected those allegations; and also inadvertently omitted to put in the judgment in which the trial judge adjudged there was no basis for the allegations; and also omitted the fact that while the plaintiff was a member of a minority race, a substantial part of the jury which tried his case belonged to the same race he did.

So I think it is wise to seek some information from people who are in position to know rather than from people who have got a particular ax to grind.

Mr. STOREY. Well, Senator Ervin, I might mention this: You have a very fine advisory committee in North Carolina; Mr. McNeill Smith is the chairman, and attended our education conference in Nashville, and I believe formed superintendent of schools in Greensboro, Ben Smith, was there, and contributed a lot. You have a very fine committee.

Really, we think that is one of the most important provisions you put in the act, besides that on voting.

I think everybody agrees that those matters should be investigated; and we really have high hopes for the facts, the evaluation, and the recommendations that these several committees will bring in. At least it gives us a broad base, better than we six people could do sitting at one place.

Senator ERVIN. I thank you.

Senator CARROLL. Mr. Tiffany, would you proceed now?

Mr. TIFFANY. Mr. Chairman, I would be very happy to submit my statement as read in view of the very fine statement which has been submitted by Dean Storey.

I think if I were to read it it would only take your time. I would be happy to do so, if that is the view of the committee, and I certainly stand ready to answer questions to the best of my ability; but I would submit my statement as read, sir.

(The prepared statement of Mr. Tiffany follows:)

STATEMENT OF GORDON M. TIFFANY, STAFF DIRECTOR, COMMISSION ON CIVIL RIGHTS

Mr. Chairman, my name is Gordon Tiffany. I am staff director of the Commission on Civil Rights.

I appreciate very much this opportunity to appear before your committee in connection with various pending civil rights legislation.

First, I want to say that it has been a great privilege for me to work with such distinguished men as we have on our Commission. The combined wisdom and experience of this group has guided our work, with certainty, toward success. I would like to emphasize, as I did a year ago when I appeared before this committee, that, "Upon questions of policy and methods, as well, the Commissioners are the arbiters. I assure you if, when the job is done, credit is due it will be theirs." My opinion has not changed.

Secondly, the day-to-day work of the Commission has been performed with careful diligence by a staff which, in its entirety, has shown extraordinary ability and dedication combined with reasonable balance. I would like to have the record shown my gratitude.

As Dean Storey has stated, the Commission on Civil Rights takes no position on the measures under discussion and cannot do so until its studies and