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Senator Carroll, what are your commitments today? We all have so many commitments here that we cannot spend all day in one hearing.

I am on 16 committees and subcommittees and chairman of 5 of them, and we cannot just let everything stop because of these allimportant hearings, unhappily.

Tomorrow this committee is meeting, because of the presence of the American Society of Newspaper Editors in the city, we are meeting to hear certain outstanding journalists on the broad question relating to specific legislation on the subject of freedom of information.

These men have come from great distances for this meeting and, of course, they are busy men, as are we all, and the meeting was scheduled for tomorrow to hear six representatives of the newspaper profession, six representative editors and publishers on Friday, so that leaves us in this dilemma, and our dilemma is as I have stated.

Senator CARROLL. Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt, if I could find out some idea as to how long each of these witnesses will take to testify then I can reach a conclusion.

Senator HENNINGS. Senator Carroll, part of our problem is not the fault of but relates to the general hearings in that we Members of the Senate and I am not going to use the word "guilty," because by interrogation we have developed facts-we Members of the Senate and of this committee have contributed to the lengthening of these hearings because of the questions that have been asked of the witnesses.

I think the witnesses have, for the most part indeed and certainly all the witnesses today, have been exceedingly considerate and restrained not only in their presentation but in the relative brevity of their testimony.

So I would say, Senator Carroll, since I may be detained for 2 hours, if you could and would oblige this afternoon I think we would be most grateful to you.

If it is not convenient to you, I will ask unanimous consent that the counsel of the subcommittee, who is completely familiar with all phases of this subject, Mr. Charles Slayman, who sits on my left, be, by unanimous consent, authorized to hold the hearings. Since the witnesses are not under oath, these are opinion matters, matters of opinion testimony, conclusions not relating to a general controversy over facts, I think that that might be proper.

What is your suggestion as to that?

Senator CARROLL. Well, I thought that if the chairman is not going to be here, and Senator Johnston may not be here, I will be perfectly willing to take on the job this afternoon. I have a meeting to go to now. I have been delayed an hour now-but partly because of my own questioning

Senator HENNINGS. I have another subcommittee meeting this morning, too, Senator, which I have to go to. We all have this conflict.

I want all of you in the audience to understand that. When we are at one committee we probably should be at two or three others on some occasions, and certainly we should be edified by some of the debate on the all-important labor relations bill which is at this moment being debated in the Senate we just have to spread ourselves pretty thin around here and do the best we can.

Senator CARROLL. I was going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, if you would recess until 2:30, then I can come back and stay at least for one witness, and I will try to stay for both witnesses.

Senator JOHNSTON. There is one witness I want to hear when he testifies and that is John McCray. I do know McCray very well. Another thing, the last witness on the stand, I want to ask him one more question, Billie Fleming.

Senator HENNINGS. Mr. Fleming is on his way, I understand, Senator Johnston.

Mr. Fleming, Senator Johnston wanted to ask you one more question.

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Senator JOHNSTON. What relation is Allen Fleming to you?
Mr. FLEMING. That is my brother.

Senator JOHNSTON. That is your brother. Do you know that he borrowed $4,500 from the Bank of Summerton, and it is recorded in Book 39 in Clarendon County, page 69?

Mr. FLEMING. That loan was negotiated-did you see the note on that? That was a construction loan, and that was negotiated before the formation of your citizens councils.

Senator JOHNSTON. Did you know he is now behind in the payment of that note and the president of the bank is not even foreclosing on him at the present time? They are being lenient with him. Did you know that?

Mr. FLEMING. I did not.

Senator JOHNSTON. And the bank president is the same man that you spoke of who runs the bank down there in Clarendon County. Charles Plowden is the man's name, and he used to be chairman of the way and means committee of the house of representatives in South Carolina.

Senator HENNINGS. Is there anything further, Senator Johnston? Senator JOHNSTON. He makes the further statement that he makes loans to anyone with adequate security, white or colored. He does not ask them any questions, so he says, whether they belong to the NAACP or to any other organization.

Senator HENNINGS. Is that all at this time?

Mr. FLEMING. May I restate to the committee that the Bank of Summerton emphatically denies credit to the plaintiffs in the Clarendon County action, and all known members of the NAACP. Senator HENNINGS. Is that all, gentlemen?

If so, I would like to make one announcement, that the Committee on the Judiciary has received the nomination of George M. Johnson, of California, to be a member of the Commission on Civil Rights vice J. Ernest Wilkins, deceased.

That nomination has been referred to the standing Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights, and accordingly there will be a hearing held, a public hearing, on this nomination on Tuesday morning, April 21, next Tuesday, 1959.

With that, we will recess until 2:30 this afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene at 2:30 p.m., of the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Present: Senators Carroll (presiding) and Johnston.
Also present: Charles H. Slayman, Jr., chief counsel.

Senator CARROLL. The committee will come to order. I understand Senator Olin Johnston would like to be present at the testimony of John H. McCray, and therefore, we will call out of order that witness because there is a possibility that he may not be able to be with us on the following witness; is that right?

Senator JOHNSTON. That is true.

Senator CARROLL. Mr. McCray, will you come forward, please? And will you state your name, please?

Mr. MCCRAY. I am John H. McCray of Columbia, S.C. I am chairman of the South Carolina Progressive Democrats. By profession I am a newspaperman.

Senator CARROLL. Do you have a prepared statement that you wish to present?

Mr. MCCRAY. Yes, sir; I have.

Senator CARROLL. Would you desire to read your statement?

Mr. MCCRAY. I would like to read it generally. I may skip parts of it in order to save time.

Senator CARROLL. May I say without objection the part that you skip will be included in the record.

Mr. MCCRAY. Thank you. I should like very much to have the entire statement included. There may be other remarks in addition that are not shown in the statement that I would like, also, to be included, sir.

Senator CARROLL. Without objection it is so ordered.

Mr. MCCRAY. Thank you.

Senator CARROLL. All right, proceed.

STATEMENT OF JOHN H. McCRAY, STATE CHAIRMAN, SOUTH CAROLINA PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZATION, COLUMBIA, S.C.

Mr. MCCRAY. Mr. Chairman, and other honorable members of this committee, on behalf of my associates, the 825,000 Negro citizens of South Carolina, and the many others in that State who believe, substantially as we do, on the subject of human rights, I wish to express our gratitude for the opportunity to speak before you.

The members of my delegation were chosen April 15, 1959, during a meeting at Columbia on the statewide level; the meeting was well advertised beforehand, and open to all citizens in South Carolina interested in civil rights. The expenses incurred by the delegation are being paid both by its members, and by those attending the public meeting. And we wish it known that while we deemed it necessary to come before you, we were convinced that we ought not inflict any expenses incurred upon those of our citizens who may not believe as we do. We didn't arrive in airplanes owned, or paid for, by the State of South Carolina.

Senator JOHNSTON. I guess you know that the Governor and the group that came with him came in private planes and not State planes?

Mr. MCCRAY. Senator, according to our information some of the planes used in that trip up were owned by the State of South Carolina Aeronautics Commission, I believe; that is, annexed or assigned

to it.

Senator JOHNSTON. I may say that the Governor called me today and said the planes that they came up in were private planes, at no expense to the State.

Mr. MCCRAY. They might have switched at the last moment.
Senator JOнSTON. That is all I know about it.

Mr. MCCRAY. Beg pardon?

Senator JOHNSTON. That is what they said over the phone today. Mr. MCCRAY. Well, the published information there was to the contrary.

Another point of note is that while we are patently opposed to "separate but equal" that ideology figures at least twice in our being here: We're asking of you "equal" attention to what we say; and are forced by circumstances over which we had no control, to speak "separately" from another group of South Carolinians professing a deep interest in the same area of civil rights.

Senator JOHNSTON. I think in defense of everybody, I should say we could not hear all of them, as you recall, in 1 day. We had them over here, they were scheduled for the morning, and the other crowd was for the afternoon. I understand that was the extent of it. There was no attempt to exclude anybody at that time.

Mr. SLAYMAN. That is correct, Senator Johnston. To date, we have tried to schedule every one who has asked to be heard-whether he was a State official or representing a private membership organization. Senator JOHNSTON. For your further information, we are trying to expedite matters to date. The other Senator present will bear me out in this. Only one person has been on the floor of the Senate and objected over there to this committee meeting.

Senator CARROLL. That is exactly right. When the buzzer buzzed at 12 o'clock.

Senator JOHNSTON. If they should ring now we would have to leave.

Senator CARROLL. Under the rules of the Senate, if any objection is raised on the floor of the Senate we would have to suspend these hearings and report forthwith. I assume consent has been givenMr. SLAYMAN. That is right; we have Senate consent today.

Senator CARROLL. For us to be here. So I suggest let us get into the facts.

Mr. MCCRAY. Thank you.

But in reply to Senator Johnston's question, I should like to make our position clear on the statement I have just made.

This area of civil rights, any question that affects the citizens of South Carolina, since we do have this segregation of the citizens there, is of interest to both groups. I think that our interest, that is the Negro's interest in civil rights in South Carolina is, perhaps, greater than those of any other persons from one point of view.

Well now, if the State wanted to present here before this committee both sides of the story, I think that those who arranged for the committee to appear here on April 14, should have consulted with our leadership.

Senator Johnston knows me. And I think all of our Representatives in Congress they know me and they know of us. But none of us was consulted about it.

Mr. SLAYMAN. Are you objecting to appearing today?

Mr. MCCRAY. I am not objecting. I am simply replying to the point raised by Senator Johnston there.

Senator JOHNSTON. I never raised any question.

Mr. MCCRAY. Thank you, sir.

Senator JOHNSTON. I stated the conditions under which we were working. It a usual thing, those that are against it are here for 1 day and those for it on different occasions, as in the past.

Mr. SLAYMAN. That is correct.

Mr. MCCRAY. May I state

Mr. SLAYMAN. That is exactly it. One side said we should try to hear the witnesses in a group, and the committee said, "Well, somebody has got to speak separately first."

And then I heard complaints later that we had A instead of B first.

I am just a little surprised that this is objected to.

We have absolutely everybody scheduled who has asked to be heard. Mr. MCCRAY. I think, sir, that, perhaps, I have not made myself clear on this question of our being here. We are not objecting to speaking at this time. What we do object to is the fact that an arrangement was made by our Representative in Congress for some of our elected officers in South Carolina to come before this committee on the question of civil rights without including anybody of the point of view of those who are opposed to segregation.

Mr. SLAYMAN. That is not correct. You are here. You are being heard. And you are present in your own case with your friends here you are here.

Mr. MCCRAY. That is correct, sir. But we had to make our own arrangements to get here.

Senator CARROLL. Is it your complaint that anyone who wants to be heard from South Carolina is not going to be heard?

Mr. MCCRAY. That is not my complaint, sir. My complaint is not against any against this committee-it is against our Representatives in Congress and the State of South Carolina who made the arrangements for the delegation, or the spokesman from South Carolina appearing here.

Mr. SLAYMAN. That is still not correct. The Members of the House of Representatives could not make any arrangements to govern our subcommittee.

Mr. MCCRAY. I am sorry-I didn't say the House of Representatives. I didn't mean that.

Senator CARROLL. There is one thing that is not clear to the Chair I will take a minute or two to say this.

Mr. MCCRAY. It is a minor point. May we leave that and continue? Senator CARROLL. I want to clear the record because

Mr. MCCRAY. All right.

Senator CARROLL. I don't know how we have gotten into this.
Mr. MCCRAY. May I restate it?

Senator CARROLL. The point is, of those who favor civil rights legislation from South Carolina-is there anyone who contends that he has not been properly heard before this committee?

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