TRANSMITTING A MESSAGE TO GROUP, COORDINATE PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE ON CONSOLIDATION OF GOV ERNMENT AGENCIES WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1932 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, The committee this day met at 10.15 o'clock a. m., Hon. John J. Cochran, chairman, presiding, for consideration of the message from the President of the United States transmitting a message to group, coordinate, and consolidate executive and administration agencies of the Government, as nearly as may be, according to major purposes, which message was submitted to the Congress on December 9, 1932, and is House Document 493, Seventy-second Congress, second session. The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, we meet this morning to hold a hearing on the message of the President to consolidate agencies of the Government. Col. J. Clawson Roop, Director of the Bureau of the Budget, has kindly consented to make a statement this morning in reference to the message of the President wherein he issues certain Executive orders relating to consolidations. STATEMENT OF HON. J. CLAWSON ROOP, DIRECTOR OF THE BUREAU OF THE BUDGET The CHAIRMAN. Colonel Roop, would you like to go ahead in your own way and not be interrupted? Colonel Roop. Whatever way you like, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. The committee would like to have a general statement, Colonel. A number of members of the committee have spoken to me saying they are interested in getting some data relative to the possible savings that might result under the President's plan. Colonel ROOP. Last September the President, as you gentlemen know, asked me to prepare some information for him for his use in determining what Executive orders he wished to issue under the provisions of the economy act. I secured some special temporary assistance and made quite a study of the organizations of the Government with a view to carrying out the instructions of Congress to group activities according to major functions. We found, in studying the situation and hearing various groups of interested parties who came in to talk the thing over, that there was no such thing as a logical grouping by major functions. It depends upon your point of view. Each man who is interested in a particular line of activity feels that in a logical grouping of major functions everything touching his activities should be grouped together, but, as most of the activities touch more than one major function, one can not do that I unless he puts everything in one pot. Consequently we had to try and allocate what, in our opinion, was the dominating major function of any particular activity, and attempt to get a practicable, workable grouping on that basis. I may say that there were many different things discussed and the final decision as to the arrangement of the orders was definitely that reached by the President after considering the various suggestions that had been made. I believe that the President has set up in these Executive orders what he himself has termed a "first step.' The President has had a great deal of personal experience in organization and reorganization of business activities. I myself have had some little experience outside the Government along that line. The President feels very strongly, and I think that he is correct in so feeling, that it is impossible for any man to set down a hard-and-fast, definite and detailed organization, ahead of time, in anything as large as the various activities of the Federal Government, and make it work. It must be developed during the course of actual grouping and reorganizing, and he has provided in his Executive orders for such adjustments in the course of the grouping. He has included in each Executive order a provision for the head of the Department, or independent establishment, concerned, to make, with the approval of the President, such rearrangements and readjustments within those activities as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of the order. That very fact led us to a feeling that it was impracticable; that it was practically impossible, to determine the amount of money that could be saved by these proposed changes. The savings should be large, but they will not all be realized at the start. It takes a certain length of time to get one's organization together, to readjust the functions and the duties, and to get them sufficiently acquainted with the details of the activities they have not had charge of before, before one can actually realize the full benefit of the grouping. There is another element which enters into the change that makes it practically impossible to estimate with any degree of accuracy the savings that may be accomplished, and that is the personal element. If one puts a competent man in charge of a particular activity he may show large savings where a less competent man might show smaller savings or no savings at all, or he might even make the cost greater. Unless it is possible to determine beforehand something of the qualifications and characteristics of the men who are going to be in charge of these consolidated activities, I think your guess as to the savings to be effected is just as good as mine, and I do not think that either guess is worth anything. The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt? Colonel RooP. Certainly. The CHAIRMAN. Does the Executive order give an official in charge the authority to create and abolish offices? Colonel ROOP. I should like to read what one of the Executive orders says concerning that matter. At the bottom of page 20 of the President's message, printed as House Document 493, it says: With the approval of the President, the Secretary of the Interior shall have the power, by order or regulation, to consolidate, eliminate, or redistribute the bureaus, agencies, offices, or activities and/or their functions, in the Department of the Interior in so far as such action may be required to carry out the purposes of |