Mr. Blaier is one of the defendants in an indictment in Marion County, Ind., involving certain transactions in Lake County, Ind. With the assurance that there are no questions going to be asked on that subject, I have advised Mr. Blaier that he is perfectly free to testify as to the Penn Products or Mercury Oil transactions without waiving any rights he might have to refuse to testify to other personal matters. The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Blaier under indictment? Mr. TRAVIS. He is. The CHAIRMAN. The subject matter of the indictment will not be gone into, if he feels that it might jeopardize his defense. I don't know just what matters counsel has to interrogate him about. We can proceed and if we reach some points where you have anything you wish to address the Chair about, you may feel at liberty to do so. I can't anticipate, I have no idea what his testimony is going to be. Mr. TRAVIS. I would like to have the understanding with counsel of the committee that the only personal products would be Penn Products and Mercury Oil, as I was told the day before yesterday. Mr. KENNEDY. I didn't tell you that. Mr. TRAVIS. Mr. Tierney. Mr. KENNEDY. He said he didn't. The CHAIRMAN. All I can say is that we will go into anything within the jurisdiction of this committee, about which we think the witness may have information, and can give testimony regarding except where, even though the committee may be interested in it, the matter may be covered by our jurisdiction, and would be clearly within the purview of these hearings, if the witness is under indictment for the offense for which he was indicted, we shall not interrogate him about that. If he feels that might jeopardize his defense, we recognize that, where he is under indictment he should not be compelled to be a witness against himself on the subject matter involved in the indictment. That rule or policy will be observed. Proceed with the interrogation and we can rule upon anything that comes up. Mr. TRAVIS. My problem, if I may interrupt, Senator, again, is that I cannot let my client open the door to testifying as to all personal matters if we don't have an understanding concerning the matters for which he is under indictment and matters relating thereto which may have occurred after the specific events for which he is indicted. The charge is a conspiracy charge, and the indictment charge is a conspiracy charge, and it is very clear under Indiana criminal law that events which happen after the specific event charged in the indictment might be used by the prosecution to show the origin and continuance of the indictment, to relate it back. The matters that have been inquired about today in the hearing relate, to my mind, directly to the matters, to the transaction, for which he is indicted. The CHAIRMAN. I have no way of knowing what is going to happen. I don't want to make any commitments or agreements here, other than what I have said. We have done that heretofore, and I made the general statement as a matter of policy of the committee, and I think it is the correct policy of the committee. I don't know what he is going to be asked. You will have to give him such counsel as you feel under obligation to as his attorney. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy. Mr. KENNEDY. I can say, Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of going at all into the matters for which Mr. Blaier is presently under indictment, namely the road situation out in Indiana. The CHAIRMAN. Is that what he is indicted for, some activity in connection with that? Mr. KENNEDY. With the purchase of property and the sale back to the State for excessive and exorbitant profits. We don't expect to go into that matter. Mr. TRAVIS. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be helpful if a copy of the indictment were placed in the record. I have one here. The CHAIRMAN. We will not place it in the record. It may be made exhibit No. 47, for reference. (Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 47" for reference and may be found in the files of the Select Committee.) Mr. KENNEDY. You are second general vice president of the Carpenters? Mr. BLAIER. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you held that position? Mr. BLAIER. Since 1952, January. Mr. KENNEDY. You were appointed at that time? Mr. BLAIER. At that time I was appointed. Mr. KENNEDY. And subsequently you were elected at a convention in November 1954? Mr. BLAIER. That is right, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you have any opposition at that time? Mr. BLAIER. I had no opposition. Mr. KENNEDY. What position did you hold prior to the time you became second vice president? Mr. BLAIER. I was a member of the general executive board, representing the second district. Mr. KENNEDY. Were you appointed to that position? Mr. BLAIER. In 1948 I was appointed to succeed William K. Kelly and elected in the 1950 convention by acclamation. Mr. KENNEDY. You had no opposition? Mr. BLAIER. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. What does the second district cover, what areas? Mr. BLAIER. New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, West Virginia, and the District of Columbia. Mr. KENNEDY. When did you first met Mr. Max Raddock? Mr. TRAVIS. At this point, Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Chairman, I would like it understood distinctly that the question may be answered on the condition that it will not relate to anything transpiring in Lake County, Ind. There is no question that the witness has known Mr. Raddock for many years, but in view of the line of questioning that has gone on today, the questions could lead to a direct inquiry into the matters for which Mr. Blaier is under indictment. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will sustain that to the extent of the indictment, the matters covered in the indictment. I will not sustain it beyond that. Mr. TRAVIS. Matters occurring after the event? The CHAIRMAN. If they are unrelated to the things contained in the indictment, yes. A man could be indicted up there, or could be under indictment, for one offense, and might subsequently commit another, or commit some inpropriety or violation of trust, as we are often inquiring into here, and still would have no relation to the subject matter contained in the indictment. Therefore, I couldn't excuse a witness from testifying about other things. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Raddock, as I understand it, is not under indictment in the conspiracy with Mr. Blaier, at least as of this time. Mr. TRAVIS. This witness is under indictment, Mr. Kennedy, and his rights must be protected and preserved. Mr. KENNEDY. This is a question on the relationship with Mr. Raddock, and as I understand it Mr. Raddock is not under indictment at the present time in connection with a conspiracy with Mr. Blaier. Mr. TRAVIS. I have no knowledge about Mr. Raddock. Mr. KENNEDY. We are just asking about Mr. Raddock. I am sure he can answer those questions. Mr. TRAVIS. If the inquiry will relate to transactions in Lake County, Ind., the witness will be advised by me that he cannot answer the questions, because he is charged with conspiracy under indictment, and anything with regard to that, restitution or otherwise, is directly related, and could be used by the prosecution, possibly, against him. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed with the questions. Counsel can represent his client as he wishes to. Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you know Mr. Raddock? Mr. BLAIER. On the advise of counsel, I refuse to answer the question, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Kennedy, on the grounds that it relates solely to a personal matter not pertinent to any activity which this committee is authorized to investigate, and also because it might aid the prosecution in the case in which I am under indictment. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, as far as the first objection, I would like to ask Mr. Blaier about serving on a committee of the Carpenters which was to handle the negotiations and the interest of the Carpenters' Union in connection with Mr. Raddock regarding a book that Mr. Raddock was expected to write and produce. That would appear to be very much union business. Mr. TRAVIS. That, Mr. Kennedy, is very pertinent to your investigation, and if the questioning will be limited to that in connection with the relations between this witness and Mr. Raddock, I will advise him to answer your questions. Mr. KENNEDY. We found that Mr. Raddock got an overwhelming profit, and excessive profit, or what appears to be. The CHAIRMAN. He says he would advise him to answer. Mr. TRAVIS. If it is limited to the Carpenter Mr. KENNEDY. But I am not restricted with regard to further questions. I want to make sure that is understood, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. We will proceed to ask the witness about the book matter. Mr. TRAVIS. I want it understood we are not waiving our right to object later to the Lake County matter. The CHAIRMAN. You are not waiving your rights beyond that. As the Chair advised you, any time you think the rights of your client are being invaded, you may make your objection and the Chair will rule on it. Mr. TRAVIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will instruct Mr. Blaier to answer the question. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Blaier, do you know Mr. Raddock? Mr. KENNEDY. For how long have you known him? Mr. BLAIER. I believe I first got acquainted with Mr. Max Raddock in December 1953. Mr. KENNEDY. Was that in connection with Mr. Raddock possibly writing or authoring and producing a book on Mr. Hutcheson? Mr. BLAIER. It was. Mr. KENNEDY. Were you appointed at that time to a subcommittee to handle the negotiations for the Carpenters? Mr. BLATER. No, sir; not at that time. Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently were you appointed to such a subcommittee? Mr. BLAIER. No; not in the sense that you direct the question. I was never appointed on a subcommittee to talk to him about publishing of the book. Mr. KENNEDY. Were you ever on any committee, subcommittee, that was to handle the negotiations, handle the book generally for the Carpenter's Union? Mr. BLAIER. Mr. Kennedy, I have to answer it this way Mr. KENNEDY. Just explain what your position was and we will move along. Mr. BLAIER. If you will bear with me in my humble explanation of what transpired, that will lead into what you are asking, I believe. Mr. KENNEDY. All right, fine. Mr. BLAIER. In December 1953, from memory I am quoting, Mr. Raddock was presented to the resident officers in Indianapolis where we discussed with him the probability of publishing a biography of our late departed and loved general president-emeritus William L. Hutcheson. I want to take this time now to say to you that for previous years, many of those concerned in the United Brotherhood had requested the late departed William L. Hutcheson to have a biography made, and he always refused. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Blaier, I don't want to go into all of that right now. Mr. BLAIER. I will stop there. Mr. KENNEDY. If we could just move along, then you could get on and off quickly. Mr. BLAIER. Yes, sir. And then after that meeting there was a proxy vote taken from our board members as to whether or not we would go into the publishing of 6,000 books on the biography of William L. Hutcheson. At our board meeting following that December meeting at the general office, with the resident officers, and after the proxy vote, the general executive board in its entirety, discussed the matter with Mr. Raddock. We felt, and I speak of the entire board at that time-some have departed since we felt that at that time we should produce an article. outstanding, a book, a memorial to William L. Hutcheson, and, if possible, add some of the history. 21243-58-pt. 31-19 Mr. Raddock at that time had along with him, a Dr. Rayber or Grayber, who, at that time, started to interview various members of the board. Then we had a subsequent meeting in May in Chicago in 1954. At that time, Mr. Raddock came before the board again and advised that in his research, he required additional funds, because we had, from our February meeting, and then again in the May meeting, decided that we should include a history of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America. What brought that about, if you permit me Mr. KENNEDY. I think you have given me the background. Mr. BLAIER. I had one little point, if you allow me, that might add to it. Mr. KENNEDY. I want to be fair. Mr. BLAIER. Our late general secretary-emeritus had that assignment to prepare the history of the brotherhood for many, many years, and never completed it, and then it was reassigned to the late departed general secretary Fisher, and he never got to it, and that is why we added it to this book. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you go to any other individual to find out whether they would write such a book and how much they would charge for this service? Mr. BLAIER. Not to my knowledge. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you go to any publisher to find out how much it would cost to print such a book? Mr. BLAIER. You are asking if I did? Mr. KENNEDY. Well, you, or anybody to your knowledge. Mr. BLAIER. I have no knowledge of what our General Secretary Fisher or anybody else on the board did. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you you have anything else to do with the book, other than being on the executive board? Mr. BLAIER. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. You weren't on the board or committee that was considering the book and which was to carry on discussions with Mr. Raddock? Mr. BLAIER. Later on I served on a committee. Mr. KENNEDY. When was that? Mr. BLAIER. I was never on the committee about the book, other than in a full board action. Mr. KENNEDY. I thought you said later on you served on such a committee. That was Mr. BLAIER. Well, I came to this point where we advanced him some money. I was on that committee as a subcommittee. back in February, 1955, I believe, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. You were on that committee; is that right? Mr. BLAIER. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. And you agreed to advance him $200,000 at that time? Mr. BLAIER. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. How much? Mr. BLAIER. $100,000, I believe, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. $100,000? Mr. BLAIER. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. How many books was he to produce for that? Mr. BLAIER. 56,000. |