bers who desired to move Amendments | quer's proposal was overwhelming. The which would come earlier.

conian law does not exist. But what cellor of the Exchequer, at the beginning Government which is ever likely to get of Mr. Speaker's examination, asked upon the Treasury Bench will not use whether the Minister might not make this Rule to its own advantage. Of his statement before the Speaker left the course, every Government makes use of Chair; in short, whether he might not the weapons at its command, and with move the Speaker out of the Chair?the more zest if forged by its opponents. upon which a general debate would follow; It is not the present Government that I then after that stage one Amendment fear, but a possible Government which might be considered according to the might come, in some far-off Session, terms of the Chancellor of the Exchefrom those Benches below the opposite quer's Resolution of 1876. Of course, Gangway, when my right hon. Friend the first debate on Mr. Speaker leaving would sit disconsolate upon the front Op- the Chair would travel over the ground position Bench, and I should be mourn- of all the Amendments, and half of them ful below the Gangway. I never would would virtually be swept away by a pay such a Government the bad compli- dexterous Minister, though probably one ment of supposing that they would be or two would remain behind to be dealt such bad managers that if, when they with on the days when the particular had Monday to themselves and could get Supply to which they referred came on. their Supply through, they would put it I also ventured to urge this before the down on Thursday when the Opposi- Committee. It seems to me that the tion could still do their little something Estimates might be divided into more to stop them? Of course, they would chapters than at present. At present not; no people fit to sit on the Treasury we have the three great divisions of Bench could possibly so mismanage their Army, Navy, and Civil Service Estibusiness. And thus their Supply would mates; but the latter comprise, not to be carried through on Mondays. I dare name other topics, charges for Public say it would be bad Supply, and that it Works, the judicial arrangement of the would do a great deal of mischief; per- country, Education and Fine Arts, and the haps by its savings and its caprices we Diplomatic Service, each of which, speakshould lose half our Colonies and Cyprus ing roughly, has its own mouthpiece in into the bargain; but we should take our the Government. Would it not be a revenge by being nasty, thoroughly common-sense arrangement that there nasty, on the Report the day after. We should be as many chapters in the Estihave read to-day in the newspapers mates as there are definite Members to about Captain Cook; and I would move them? The Home Secretary, for appeal to my right hon. Friend whether instance, could move his batch, the First it is worth while risking all these dis- Commissioner of Works his, and the asters for the barren honour of becom- Vice President of the Council would ing a Captain Cook of Parliamentary move the Education and South KenForms. I do not know, Sir, if I should sington Votes and so on; and thus you be in Order, and I tremble before the would get the Estimates divided into learned Serjeant on the other side; but seven or eight distinct chapters, which if I could only suggest in a hypothetical would bring forth the same number of manner a certain Amendment which I Ministerial statements before you, Sir, shall be prepared to move later on, I left the Chair. We should in that way think we might arrive at a satisfactory regulate grievances, and only take those compromise. In regard to the sugges- directly referring to the Estimates, or tion of the Minister making his state- those particular Estimates, while Tuesment with the Speaker in the Chair, day and Friday would remain for the you, Sir, have expressed your opinion many miscellaneous subjects which we that the scheme was one which might are apt to discuss on going into Comwork well, and the Chairman of Com-mittee of Supply, and which sometimes mittees, did the same, although it is fair to the House to say that an authority whom we all greatly respect, Sir Thomas May, saw a difficulty in the way. I think, however, his difficulty his difficulty was rather on a matter of form than of an absolutely practical nature. The Chan

puzzle people out-of-doors. I should like to know, Sir, whether I should be in Order in reading an Amendment?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member certainly would not be in Order in moving an Amendment, for at the present time there is an Amendment before

the House which has not been disposed | wanted was the certainty that the

of.

MR. BERESFORD HOPE: Then, Sir, I will read a supposed Resolution. I will suppose, Sir, that in some future Parliament, some ideal Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed a Resolution which embodied the principles of the Resolution of 1876, and of the provision that the Minister should make his statements on moving the Speaker out of the Chair. Whoever does this will, I believe, offer the best solution of the difficulty.

House would attend to the Estimates, and that the expenditure of the country's money should be fully criticized, which was one of the special duties of the House of Commons. The hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands), though he had touched the real point at issue, had not put it quite fairly before the House. He had enlarged upon the importance of being able to discuss before going into Committee the whole policy of the Government, as it involved more serious sums of money than almost any EstiMR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN mates, and had put the matter as if it said, that the hon. Member for Cam- were a question between the discussion bridge University (Mr. Beresford Hope) of such policy and the discussion of the had compared the Chancellor of the details of Estimates. If that was really Exchequer to Captain Cook, and he the case, the argument of the hon. (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen) supposed Member would be irrefutable; but he that the House was to imply that put it to everyone whether there had the hon. Gentleman compared him- been any question connected with the self to the estimable savage who, ac- policy of the Government upon which, cording to that morning's newspapers, if really objected to, even by a small claimed to have destroyed that unfortu- minority, there had not been ample opnate discoverer. The hon. Member's portunities of raising debate? The hon. speech tended to destroy all the Chan- Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir cellor of the Exchequer's Resolutions. Charles W. Dilke) had quoted the eviNow, nothing was more popular with a dence of the Speaker and other eminent large section of the House of Commons personages given before the Select Comthan to tell them that an attempt was mittee, but had strangely omitted another being made to tamper with its privileges. material part of the evidence of the A number of Gentlemen were always Speaker of the House, who, on being ready to believe such a statement, just categorically asked three questions, had as a certain number were always ready replied-first, that he had never known to believe paragraphs which appeared a real grievance which had been prein the newspapers and to found upon vented from being brought before the them serious questions in that House, House, inasmuch as it was to the interests although they had, in reality, no founda- of Ministers that it should be so brought tion at all. But let the House take a and openly dealt with, rather than be practical view of the question and ask made the subject of comment in the what was the true reason for these Reso- Press; next, that the chief object of the lutions. Now, what was the complaint Minister must be to obtain facilities for of the country? Was it that grievances the transaction of the business of the were not sufficiently considered, or that country, and that this was of more imhon. Members were debarred from mak-portance than that every Member should ing speeches? Certainly not; the complaint was that the Business of the House was constantly brought to a standstill by the vast number of speeches delivered, and that the House failed as a legislative body, if not as a debating society. That being the case, the Government had taken the right course in making proposals that had been endorsed by a large majority of an impartial Select Committee, and in moving that on one day of the week the House should at once go into Committee of Supply without debate. What they

have the opportunity of airing his particular crochet; and, lastly, that in his opinion a small restriction of the rights of individual Members was necessary for the conduct of Public Business. The real question was whether the House wanted to expedite its Business or to retain Rules which had no other considerable merit than antiquity, which he (Mr. Knatchbull-Hugessen) should have thought would rather have recommended them to the other, and not to the Liberal, side of the House. They had been well suited to the old times in which they

were drawn; but now, if not absolutely obsolete, were inapplicable to an Assembly in which so many more Members took part in the debates than was formerly the case. The time of the House had been year after year occupied, not by grievances, but by questions which the vast majority would have put on one side, if the forms of procedure had not stood in the way. The cry of privilege had been raised upon mistaken grounds. He regretted that an attempt should be made to represent those who were or had been officials of the House as acting in opposition to the independent Members when they really desired and ought to be rowing in the same boat, and uniting in an honest endeavour to promote the due transaction of the business of the country.

MR. SERJEANT SIMON said, there was not a single instance of a real grievance which hon. Members had not had an opportunity of bringing forward; but there were some so-called griev ances, such as the question of a road across the Park, which were more fit for a local vestry, over which the time of the House had been frequently wasted. He had come down night after night, as stated by the hon. Member for East Sussex (Mr. Gregory), and found the House still talking about these matters instead of proceeding with the proper Business of the evening. Session after Session had been wasted in mere empty speeches, and nothing had been done; and the end of this had been to defeat the very object of the Rules for which hon. Members below the GangMR. GREGORY trusted there would way were contending. The considerabe no further opposition to the adoption of the Estimates had been deferred tion of the Resolution after the statements that had been made on both sides. He had over and over again come down to the House with the view of getting on with Supply; but instead of that had sat listening to Motions which had very little to do with Supply till nearly 1 o'clock in the morning, when very little attention could be paid to the real questions before them. He believed that to the constituencies this was a serious grievance, and his constituents felt that matters of Supply ought not to be discussed in the desultory manner in which they must be discussed at that time in the morning. He, therefore, approved of the Resolution, and pointed out that it would facilitate the progress of Business without interfering with the Privileges of the House. It appeared to him that hon. Members had ample opportunities of bringing forward their grievances; they had at all events two days in the week, and they were also to have the opportunity when Committee of Ways and Means stood upon the Paper. He would ask whether the grievances spoken of were very crying ones, and whether they were such as should interpose between the House and its going thoroughly into the discharge of one of its most important functions. He spoke with some feeling, because it was to him and others actively engaged in business a great sacrifice to attend the Sittings of the House. He trusted the House would in every way facilitate Committee of Supply.

till a late period of the Session when the House was weary and many of the Members had gone out of town, and the Government had been able to carry whatever Estimates it pleased. Many important measures also had been withdrawn in consequence of this waste of time. He thought that some compromise might be arrived at which, while it gave effective force to the old and important principle of "grievances before Supply," would yet prevent their spending so much time, not in passing great measures, but in listening to speeches which led to nothing. When the right time came, he intended to move that words be added to the Motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which would enable a Question to be put before the Speaker left the Chair.

SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOT remarked, that the great complaint which had been made by both sides of the House was that fair opportunities were not afforded for the discussion of the Estimates; and he could not see that, under the Resolution which was now being considered, there was any guarantee that Ministers would bring forward their financial proposals in proper or reasonable time, or that they would not throw them over until the end of the Session, thus necessitating large and repeated Votes on Account. Ministers were always more inclined to give to Bills on which they relied for popularity the preference over Supply, which only interested a comparatively small section