any salary. As to the other part of the Question, I must reserve my remarks till after I have perused the Bill on the subject.

CATTLE DISEASE-THE AMERICAN
CATTLE TRADE.-QUESTION.

MR. BRUEN asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it has come to the knowledge of the Irish Government that several carcases of fat cattle have been washed on shore on the coast of Ireland, and have been found to show symptoms of disease; whether there is any evidence to show that cattle were

of natives by Boer volunteers near Kuegas in Griqualand West; whether it is true that out of a party of eighty natives, possessing among them only two guns, upwards of forty, including thirteen women and children, were killed, and twenty-four women and children wounded; whether it is a fact that after the whole party of natives had been killed, wounded, or captured, orders were given by the commandant of the Burgher voluncould not walk; and whether, as stated, teers to kill such of the wounded as these orders were carried out on men that all the wounded women and children and women alike; whether it is a fact thrown overboard from the steamers were deported into Cape Colony to be engaged in the American cattle trade; and, what steps have been taken to bury placed at service there as soon as they these carcases, or otherwise to pre-wounds; and, if so, under what law did were sufficiently recovered from their vent the propagation of disease from the deportation take place; and, if he them? MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, a repre-into the truth of the statements rehas not already ordered an investigation. sentation was recently made to the Irish ferred to, whether he will take steps to have them thoroughly investigated?

Government to the effect that some carcases had been washed ashore on the SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: coast of the county Cork; but it has not been ascertained how they came these statements by the Notice of the Sir, when my attention was called to there, or that they showed any symptoms hon. Member's Question, I thought they of being diseased. Circulars, however, referred to some reports which reached have been addressed by the Lord Lieuthis country last Summer, of occurtenant to the local authorities, and by the Board of Trade to the Receivers of taken place in the suppression of the rences which were alleged to have Wrecks, suggesting precautionary mea-outbreak in Griqualand West. At that sures in the event of any more carcases being found.

time I inquired into the truth of these reports, and on page 325 of the Cape Blue Book presented in December, and on page 116 of that last issued, will be found despatches from Colonel Lanyon denying the charges, and inclosing statements from the missionaries in support of his denial, forming in the whole, I think, quite a satisfactory answer to the charges that were made. The hon. Member has, however, been kind enough to forward me the newspaper extracts to which his Question alludes, in which the date of the events referred to is given as October 30; but I have no information as to anything of the kind which occurred at that date which would enable me to answer his Question. I will therefore cause inquiry to be made; but it is only fair to Colonel Lanyon, and those who fought under him in Griqualand West, to bear in mind the fact that previous statements very similar to these have been made and satisfactorily replied to,

SOUTH AFRICA-THE ZULU WAR-
THE NATIVE CONTINGENT.

QUESTION.

SIR ALEXANDER GORDON asked the Surveyor General of the Ordnance, If his attention has been drawn to the Despatch of Lord Chelmsford to the Secretary of State for War, dated 25th November 1878, reporting that he was unable to mobilise the Natal Native Contingent owing to his demands for camp equipment not having been complied with; and if he will state the reason of the delay in complying with such demands?

LORD EUSTACE CECIL: Yes, Sir, my attention has been drawn to the matter in question, and with the permission of the House I will state what actually occurred. A telegram was received from Lord Chelmsford on 4th August as follows:-"No more supplies are required at present to be sent to Cape Colony or Natal." Acting upon this telegram, the outstanding orders for camp equipment were not executed; but the precaution was taken at the same time to so inform Lord Chelmsford. He telegraphed back on October 26 that his previous telegram referred to commissariat supplies only. The demands for camp equipment, which had been previously cancelled, were immediately ordered to be complied with, and the supplies were despatched to Natal with as little delay as possible.

MOTIONS.

1906

CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.

the main functions of the House, and a duty which its Members owed to their constituents. He, however, made no charge against any particular Government. The Estimates were not proposed in their regular order; some hon. Gentlemen, perhaps, gave Notice of Amendments in regard to particular items, and Supply was repeatedly put off. As a consequence the Government ran short of money, and once or twice in the Session had to ask for Votes on Account. The discussion, it was said, could not be conveniently taken until the regular Estimate was brought forward, and the Vote on Account was granted. Thus the Session wore on, until about the last week of its existence, when hon. Members were anxious to get to the country and the moors and escape the heat of London; the Estimates were then brought forward in earnest, and hustled through the Committee, because hon. Members were too anxious and impatient to discuss them.

The practical result was that private Members interested in the matter could seldom effect any reduction of Expenditure, even where such a reduction was shown to be practicable and right, the Government, by their numbers, being always able to win the day. He had, therefore, to propose, as a tentative measure, that a Committee should be appointed to go through the Estimates in order. They need not make any elaborate Report, but they might make their rough notes and bring up their Report on each Estimate before it was discussed in the House. Then the Estimates should be considered by the House in their regular order, unless some special reason was shown why that order should be departed from. He was not in favour of a large Committee, but MR. DILLWYN, in moving that a the House would decide of what number Select Committee be appointed to con- it should consist. He made that Motion sider and report upon the Civil Service in no Party spirit, nor did he wish the Estimates in the order in which they Committee to be a political one in any appear, observed that the discussion of sense; but upon it there should, he the Estimates in Committee of Supply thought, be the Secretary of the Treawas not such a revision of them as busi-sury or some other officer of the Governness men would require of their own affairs. It was, in fact, little better than a farce. He admitted that the Estimates were generally brought before the House in a form which left little to be desired; but they took no further steps in their corporate capacity to criticize them and ascertain if they were right and proper, although that was one of VOL. CCXLIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

ment, and also a Member from the front Opposition Bench who had been connected with the Treasury. Without touching the policy of an Estimate, the Committee would see whether it had been sanctioned by the House, whether the money asked for by the Government was excessive, whether the service for which it was intended was required, or

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whether economy might be effected by a consolidation of offices, and so forth. It was said that such a Committee as he suggested would impair or destroy the responsibility of the Government. He believed that, on the contrary, it would tend to increase their sense of responsibility, because they would be subject to the criticism of an able Committee. Moreover, the Government did not seem to have felt their responsibility very keenly, for the Expenditure of the country was increasing at a fearful rate. In 1857-8 the Civil Service Estimates amounted to £14,340,000; whereas, last year, they reached £23,400,000, showing in the interval an increase of £9,000,000 per annum. The Civil Expenditure was now nearly equal to that for both the Army and Navy-namely, £26,586,000. He could not help thinking that if the Government had attacked those Esti- | mates as they ought to have done, they would have kept them down to a much smaller amount. Another objection was that such a Committee as he asked for would diminish the responsibility of the Committee of Supply. On the contrary, he believed it would strengthen the hands of the Committee of Supply. He asked the Government to do what any Member of the House in his private capacity, or any master of a public establishment would do-namely, take some steps for the purpose of examining the items of expenditure which his manager or agent might present to him. He believed that if a Committee were appointed, the effect would be a reduction of Expenditure; but if that was not the result, then the House and the country would know that no reduction could be made. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Resolution which stood in his name.

true that some paltry sum for a picture or a door-keeper's salary might occasionally be disallowed; but there had been no serious diminution in any particular Vote, or any sensible lessening of the Civil Service Estimates, in consequence of any debate in that House. He was not going so far as to say that discussions in Committee of the Whole House on the Civil Service Estimates were altogether useless, because he thought they had a certain deterrent. effect on the official mind; and although they might not get rid of certain Votes which it was proposed to put upon the Estimates, the probability was that some others were not brought forward at all in consequence of the discussions. Still, his experience was that the deterrent effect was of an infinitesimally small nature, and he had been driven with reluctance to the conclusion that the House must adopt some new plan in order to render the present farcical revision of the Estimates by the Representatives of the people something more than a mere sham. What had struck him in the course of these discussions during the last 20 years was this-that hon. Gentlemen assembled in Committee of Supply had no means of finding out where the blot lay in particular Votes. When he was in Office, he used to be amused seeing hon. Gentlemen beating all about the bush. Sometimes they were hot, sometimes cold, sometimes very near the mark, sometimes very far from it. How often did he see them taking a division on a Vote which was perfectly right, when the item above or below it was absolutely indefensible. In such a state of things it often occurred to him that what the House could not by any possibility, except by chance, discover, might be found out without MR. BAXTER said, that since he much difficulty by a strong Committee entered the House he had been asked which should have power to take eviby his hon. Friend the Member for dence. It had been said that this proSwansea to second the Motion, and he posal, if adopted, would diminish the at once acceded to the request. He had responsibility of the Secretary to the been 24 years a Member of that House, Treasury. But, after all, the Secretary and during the greater part of that time to the Treasury was only a subordinate he had devoted his attention to a criti- officer, and sometimes he was sat upon cism of the Civil Service Estimates. He by the other Departments. He often had also filled the Office of Secretary to thought that if those hon. Gentlemen the Treasury. It was perfectly obvious who insisted upon expenditure which to every candid mind that the House the Secretary to the Treasury disaphad entirely lost its control, if it ever proved had the fear of a Select Comhad any, over this branch of the Expen-mittee of the House before their eyes, diture of the country. It was perfectly the Treasury would be greatly strength

ened in resisting the demand for in- | proposition. If it were adopted, hon. creased expenditure. For his own part, Members would be able to ascertain he was not ashamed to stand there and whether the Estimates were presented say that often when in Office he would in the right form. He had often noticed have been extremely pleased to know that when an explanation was asked of that the expenditure of which he did not a Vote, Ministers retired in order to approve, but which had been forced consult with their officials. If these upon him by other Departments of the Estimates were sent to a Committee upGovernment, had to undergo revision stairs, the Members of such Committee and to pass through the ordeal of a would themselves have an opportunity Select Committee of the House of Com- of interrogating the officials who actually mons. The best mode of obtaining prepared the Accounts. The enormous economical Estimates, no doubt, was to increase of Estimates was, in a great put on the Treasury Bench men who degree, due to the action of the Party were themselves advocates of economy opposite. One means of reducing them and who desired to see the Estimates was to place a check upon expensive reduced. But there were practical diffi- legislation, such as that relating to what culties in the way of a Minister, however he might term the educational craze, conscientious in his desire to reduce par- under which an extravagant expenditure ticular Votes. The present system had was incurred in the construction of costly notoriously failed, and he saw no reason establishments and in the teaching of why they should not try another, such extra subjects. He believed the Ancient as that which was proposed by his hon. Monuments Bill, if passed, would cause Friend the Member for Swansea. As more expense than appeared at present far as the control of the House of Com- to be contemplated. There was a weekly mons over the Civil Service Expenditure journal in which from time to time had was concerned, it could not be in a worse appeared the confessions of financiers position than it was now. Therefore, he and Premiers; but to-night they had the had no hesitation in supporting, as an confessions of an ex-Secretary to the experiment, the proposal of his hon. Treasury, and his revelations had, inFriend. Unlike many hon. Members, deed, been somewhat startling. The aphe thought the Committee on Public pointment of the proposed Committee Accounts had done a great deal of good, would not impair the authority or reand probably the Committee proposed sponsibility of Ministers. On the conby his hon. Friend would have a similar trary, he thought it would strengthen effect. the hands of his hon. Friend the Secrethe proposal, because he believed it tary to the Treasury. He supported would enable the House to fulfil its most important functions with more regularity and more success than heretofore.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon the Civil Service Estimates in the order in which they appear."(Mr. Dillwyn.)

MR. HERMON also supported the Motion, although he was unable to agree with the assertion that the Government had frequently deferred these Estimates intentionally until a late period of the Session. Certainly the struggle of the Government last year was to bring them on earlier than they had ever been submitted before. Looking at what occurred last night, he did not see there was any great hope that the Civil Service Estimates, even if the proposed new Rule were passed, would obtain that full and candid examination to which they ought to be subjected. He thought the Motion which the hon. Gentleman had brought forward tonight was a practical and business-like

MR. THOMSON HANKEY said, he differed from all the last speaker had said in support of the proposal. It seemed to him to be a move in the wrong direction. The greater part of the increase of Expenditure in the Civil Service was owing to the policy of the House of Commons, and he did not believe any Committee could give to that House an opinion that would be useful to hon. Members in guiding them as to the mode in which the public money should be expended. A great deal of good had been done by the Public Accounts Committee; but that was a totally different question. The Members of that Committee did not enter at all into a question of policy, but merely satisfied themselves as to whether the money had been

expended in the manner contemplated | Paper to the Resolutions which the by the House. His hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had proMember for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) pro- posed, so that all further discussion of posed that a Committee should be ap- them was rendered almost hopeless. pointed to examine into the Estimates When he first had the honour of a seat and to report to the House their opinion in the House the Estimates were disas to whether those Estimates had been cussed. The late Mr. Hume spoke on properly framed and were proper Esti- them at what some hon. Members might mates of the Expenditure of the country regard as foolish length; but, be that for the year. He believed it was impos- as it might, it was evident they were sible for any Committee to undertake not discussed at present. He trusted, that duty, and if they did they would therefore, the Government would exerundertake, on behalf of the House of cise their power-and no Government Commons, a part of the duty which ab- within his recollection possessed greater solutely devolved on the Government. -to persuade the House to adopt some It was the duty of the House of Com- Rule which would place matters in a mons to see that the Government pre- more satisfactory position; but the prosented full Estimates before they asked posal now made would have a very infor Votes, and to criticize those Votes; jurious effect by retarding the progress but the House would be misled if it of Public Business, without the smallest appointed a Committee to examine into chance of any public benefit. all these matters of detail. The hon. Member for Swansea said he confined his remarks to the Civil Service Estimates. Well, one large item in those Estimates had reference to Education, others to the salaries of the Civil Servants, to Public Buildings, and to the three Revenue Departments-namely, the Post Office, the Customs, and the Inland Revenue. Were these subjects which a Select Committee could possibly examine into and on which it could present a Report that would be of the smallest value in guiding the Committee of Supply? He maintained that such a Select Committee would mislead them. Nine-tenths of the increase of expenditure to which the hon. Member had alluded were due to the policy of the House itself, and a Committee would be incompetent to decide whether that policy was right or wrong. If, for example, it was right that money should be expended for Education, the Committee of Council must be left, with the check of the Treasury, to determine what Estimates they would submit. The real fault arose from the fact that the House did not take proper time to examine the Estimates. The Estimates were put down day after day and week after week, and nobody knew when they would be discussed. Such a state of things was, he thought, a discredit to the management of Public Business; but when the remedy for it came to be discussed the House seemed to be all at sea, for there were, he perceived, no less than 15 new Amendments on the

SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON said, he felt somewhat alarmed when he heard the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter), for he had begun by stating that it must be obvious to every candid mind that the House of Commons had lost its control over the Estimates and that its supervision was a mere sham. The right hon. Gentleman went on to speak of the amusement with which, when in Office, he had watched the discussion of the Estimates from time to time, and stated that it frequently happened that in cases in which the House had passed one Vote after much discussion, which required no defence, they had left unnoticed another which was entirely indefensible. Now, he himself had not long occupied the post which he now had the honour to fill; but he must altogether deny that the present Government regarded the Votes which they laid before the House as being indefensible, either in whole or in part. As to the functions performed by the Committee on Public Accounts to which the right hon. Gentleman had referred, they were entirely different from any which were likely to devolve on such a Committee as that which was now proposed. The Committee on Public Accounts criticized matters after the money had been spent, and dealt with abstract questions of Account. But what would the proposed Committee have to do? They would have to deal with proposals of the Government, many of them involving questions of future policy.