Whether he is aware that the orders for putting women to the treadwheel, crank, &c., said to have been sent to Kirkdale Gaol only, were also, to the number of 350 copies, sent to Salford Hundred Gaol, and in a few days recalled because "the standing order of the 9th September, respecting the furnishing of mattresses and pillows to plank beds modifies the rules for female prisoners," and after nearly a month's delay revised orders were substituted, omitting the provisions as to treadwheel and crank for female prisoners; whether the original draft was submitted to the Commissioners, and any copies sent to any other gaols; and, if he has any objection to lay upon the Table the Correspondence between the Visiting Justices of Lancashire, himself, and the Prison Commissioners on this and other matters relating to the prisons of the county since the coming into force of the Prisons Act? PRISONS (IRELAND) ACT-MEDICAL OFFICERS.-QUESTION. MR. ERRINGTON asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the General Prisons Board (Ireland) has submitted to the Treasury any proposals for increasing, under the provisions of the Prisons Act, the pay of the surgeons of county infirmaries in proportion to the considerably increased duties thrown on them by that Act; and, whether, as these surgeons have, in spite of the repeated applications to the General Prisons Board within the last twelve months, been performing these increased duties without extra pay, he can hold out a hope that the sanction of the Treasury will be given without further delay to a reasonable increase in their salaries? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: Sir, in answer to the hon. Member for Longford, I can say that it is only within the last two or three days that the Irish Government have submitted to the Treasury proposals for the remuneration of medical officers in Irish prisons. I have not yet had an opportunity of examining them properly, and therefore I cannot give information as to what effect they may have on the pay of surgeons of county infirmaries in Ireland. I assure the hon. Gentleman I shall lose no time in looking at these proposals and coming to a conclusion, and I hope before long to settle the question. THE NEW FOREST-STONY CROSS MR. ASSHETON CROSS: Sir, the story detailed in the Question of the hon. and learned Member carries its own refutation on the face of it. As I stated the other day, the documents referred to were not fresh rules or orders issued for the guidance of the prison officers. They were merely abstracts of existing rules intended to be posted in the cells for the information of prisoners, in the same manner as abstracts of the Factory Acts are posted up in factories. The abstract of the rules applicable to males was submitted to the Commissioners and printed, and they directed that similar abstracts of the rules relating to females should also be printed and submitted to them. The latter were printed at the same place as the former; but by some mistake the abstracts relating to females were issued without having been sent to the Commissioners for revision. The latter abstracts were issued on Thursday and reached the prisons on Friday; and the mistake being discovered, they were recalled on the following Monday. Having been properly revised, they were finally issued in correct form on the 6th of December. If the hon. and learned Member for Stock-matter? port will call at the Home Office, the whole of the Correspondence on the subject will be at his service; but we do not think it necessary to print it and to lay it upon the Table of the House. MR. FAWCETT asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, as his predecessor stated on the 7th August 1876, that the Law Officers of the Crown were considering the legality of an inclosure made a short time previously near Stony Cross, in the manor of Minestead, in the New Forest, he can now inform the House what conclusion has been arrived at as to the legality of the said inclosure; and whether, if it is illegal, the Government intend to take any action in the SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON, in reply, said, that the opinion given by the Law Officers had been to the effect that they could not say that any rights of the Crown which it would be possible to enforce had been infringed by the in closures made by the lord of the manor | ther he will move to enlarge the reof Minestead. In these circumstances, ference to the Select Committee to it was impossible for the Government to take any action in the matter. MR. FAWCETT asked whether there would be any objection to lay the opinion on the Table ? SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: No. MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS-REPORT QUESTION. MR. HANBURY-TRACY asked the Paymaster General, When the Report of the Royal Commission, appointed to inquire into the privileges and revenues of certain Municipal Corporations, will be laid upon the Table of the House? which the Coroners Bill was committed, in order to enable that Committee to take evidence and report on the whole question of the appointment, duties, and payment of Coroners ? MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, that the way in which the Bill was drawn would give ample opportunity to the Committee to which it had been intrusted to report on all the subjects alluded to in his hon. Friend's Question. He had ordered a statement to be prewhich he hoped would give them valuable pared for the use of the Committee, information. He would venture to suggest that the Committee should, in the first place, go through the Bill without taking evidence; and if they should. afterwards think it advisable to take the Reference being enlarged to enable evidence, he would have no objection to them to do so. FACTORY LEGISLATION (INDIA). QUESTION. MR. STEPHEN CAVE: Sir, I am not surprised at this Question. The inquiry has been prolonged far beyond what I expected when I undertook it. There were 101 Corporations on the original list, to which 10 others were afterwards added. We have examined a large number of witnesses from most of these places, though nothing like all who were anxious to come; and we have Secretary of State for India, If the InMR. ANDERSON asked the Under had to wade through a mass of Corre-dian Government has yet decided to inspondence, former Reports, old charters, troduce Factory legislation into India; and other documents. A Royal Com- and, if he is yet prepared to lay upon the mission is not like a Parliamentary Com-Table the Report that was obtained as to mittee, which can sit on stated days the condition of the Factories in India? throughout the Session. The Members of this Commission, over which I have to say that we do not yet know the deMR. E. STANHOPE: Sir, I am sorry the honour to preside, are men fully cision to which the Government of India engaged elsewhere. One is a member has come upon this subject; but a Bill is of the Judicial Committee of the Privy certainly under their consideration. The Council. There are three Queen's Coun- only Report we have at present is one sel; there are, also, Chairmen of Quar- of July, 1875. It would, therefore, be ter Sessions in distant counties. I my-probably better to await more recent inself was Chairman of four Committees formation before laying any Papers on of this House last Session, and, of the Table. course, my time was much taken up. Nevertheless, we have held 118 sittings, QUESTION. of which 46 were during the Recess. THE SLAVE TRADE IN THE RED SEA. We have completed 65 boroughs, and have received evidence with respect to all the rest; and I hope we may report before Whitsuntide. The hon. Gentleman may rely upon our losing no time, for I can assure him that we have had quite enough of the subject. CORONERS BILL-THE SELECT COM- MR. PELL asked the Secretary of MR. ANDERSON asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If there have been any recent negotiations with Turkey on the subject of Slavery in the Red Sea, and what is the present footing of that question? MR. BOURKE: Sir, a despatch, dated the 3rd of February, has been received from Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople, reporting that the draft of the Anti-Slave Trade Treaty which was submitted to the Porte last summer has passed the Council of Ministers, and that Caratheodori Pasha has been instructed at once to enter into negotiations with the British Representative for its conclusion. FINANCE-EXCHEQUER BONDS. QUESTION. MR. WHITWELL asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Exchequer Bonds for £2,750,000, which become payable on 16th, 23rd, and 27th of March next, and which are enumerated in a Paper recently laid upon the Table of the House, comprise the whole of last year's deficiency to be provided for before the 31st March next; and, whether he intends paying the bonds off out of the surplus income of the present year or renewing them; and, if the latter, for how long? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, I believe there will be no further deficiency disclosed by the Appropriation Accounts to be provided for this year. But with regard to the more important part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I would, with his permission, request him to wait two or three days, when I shall have to make a proposal to the House with regard to the necessary provision for meeting the bonds. which are in question. MR. CHILDERS asked whether, before the right hon. Gentleman made his proposal, a Statement of the Supplementary Expenditure for the present year would have been laid on the Table? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, he hoped he would be able to lay on the Table in a few days a Statement with regard to some of the Supplementary Expenditure; but he was not sure that he could give a complete Statement. THE STRAITS SETTLEMENTS-THE PERAK EXPEDITION-MEDALS. QUESTION. COLONEL NORTH asked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any application has been made to confer a medal on the officers and men who composed the expedition to Perak? COLONEL STANLEY, in reply, said that, so far as he could trace the matter, some application of that kind was made two or three years ago; but the service performed at Perak was not thought to be of so important a nature as to render it the subject of a special medal. At the same time there was some hard fighting; and he was, therefore, prepared to place himself in communication with the Colonial and the India Offices with the view of seeing whether the medal for frontier service could not be so extended as to include a special clasp for Perak. DIVINITY SCHOOL-THE UNIVERSITY, DUBLIN. QUESTION. MR. PLUNKET asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether he will now state what course the Government intend to pursue in regard to the recommendations of the Royal Commission of last year relating to a Divinity School in the University of Dublin? MR. J. LOWTHER, in reply, said, the matter to which his hon. and learned He Friend referred was one involving the greatest consideration, and still engaging the attention of the Government. hoped shortly to announce the decision at which they had arrived. ORDERS OF THE DAY. 1908 PARLIAMENT-BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. RESOLUTION. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.] Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to the First Resolution, as amended [20th February], "That, whenever the Committee of Supply appointed for the consideration of the ordinary Army, Navy, and Civil Service Estimates stands as the first Order of the Day on a Monday, Mr. Speaker shall leave the Chair without putting any question." And which Amendment was, After the word " Monday," to insert the words" provided there be not on the Paper any Amendment relevant to the class of Estimates about to be discussed."-(Mr. Anderson.) Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted." Debate resumed. MR. O'CONNOR POWER: Hon. Members who have discussed these 1660 Resolutions at some length have in- | noxious Resolutions. The right hon. curred an amount of censure which it Gentleman the Member for Sandwich seems to me is entirely undeserved. (Mr. Knatchbull - Hugessen) has disThe House of Commons would be un- tinguished himself among the champions worthy of its name, and it would be of Parliamentary coercion on this side false to its character as the Representa- of the House; and he asked us the other tive Assembly of the people, if it did night to consider what was the complaint not offer a determined resistance to these of the country against the House, and despotic and reactionary Resolutions. he told us that it was that the House The more these Resolutions are con- was unequal to its work, and unable to sidered, the more objectionable they get through the legislation urgently deappear to independent Members on both manded. The country has certainly a sides of the House. We were told at right to complain of the deadlock in first that the Resolutions had nothing legislation; but I venture to contend to do with obstruction; but the hon. that the remedy which has found favour Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. with the right hon. Gentleman will Newdegate), who loves to persecute aggravate the disease instead of removopinion, religious or political, when it ing it. If you stifle the expression of differs from his own, declared the real popular wants in the House of Commons, motive of these restrictive proposals. where shall they find utterance? You By the first Resolution the Chancellor may say these Resolutions do not go so of the Exchequer would push us at once far as that. But, remember, they lead into Committee when Supply is down; the way in that direction, and the exand when he gets us into Committee, perience of all history shows that if enwithout any previous discussion, he will croachments of this kind are not sternly then still further restrict our freedom resisted at the outset, they will be reof debate; and yet we are told, in the peated again and again, and they will blandest possible manner, that all this find you on each successive occasion less will facilitate the discussion of the Esti- able to repel them, until finally you are mates. If you want to facilitate the obliged to succumb without raising a discussion of the Estimates, why do you murmur of opposition. The right hon. propose, in the second Resolution, to Gentleman the Member for Chester gag Members in Committee, to limit (Mr. Dodson), who has been referred to their freedom of speech, and restrict as a high authority on the Business of their right of taking divisions? While Parliament, told us he had endeavoured many plausible excuses are put forward to induce the House to part with some for these proposed alterations in the of its work. I regret very much that Rules, the principal argument urged in his efforts in that direction were not their favour is that they will facilitate successful. He was then on the right the despatch of Public Business. Now, track, and pursuing a more statesmanthis is the one important point which the like course than he is now pursuing in Chancellor of the Exchequer, and those lending his support, however cautiously, who have spoken on his side of the to the proposals of the Chancellor of the question, have, I venture to say, entirely Exchequer. There are only two rafailed to prove. The hon. Member for tional courses, by either of which the North Warwickshire says the time has difficulties of the House can be removed. come when something must be done to You must either so enlarge the powers maintain the dignity of Parliament. I of local government as to give Home quite agree with him; but when he Rule to Ireland for Irish affairs, Home suggests that the House of Commons Rule to Scotland for Scottish affairs, and shall put on a straight jacket and wear Home Rule to England for English a strong chain, held in the hands of the affairs, while at the same time mainExecutive, in order to look dignified and taining the Imperial Parliament in all respectable, I fail to appreciate the force its strength and integrity for carrying of his reasoning. If the House were on the government of the Empire, and capable of that, it would be capable of for the transaction of all Imperial afsacrificing at once both its character and fairs; or, taking the Representatives of dignity; and no one ought to be sur- the three nationalities as they are in prised, therefore, at the opposition which this House, you must assign to each the House has given to these very ob- national section respectively the legisla tion affecting the country which each represents. With the continued accumulation of work you must introduce the principle of the division of labour, or get rid of such portions of the work as you are unable to perform. The latter is by far the more sensible course to adopt; and I assert, emphatically, that this House is utterly incompetent to legislate satisfactorily for the internal wants of the three Kingdoms, besides grappling with the multitude of affairs comprehended in the management of a vast and widely-extended Empire. One day the House is summoned to discuss a question of high Imperial interest, on another to debate the merits of a Turnpike Bill-or, as somebody said a few days ago, a road across Hyde Park; but no one has undertaken to show why Parliament should stoop to questions of this description. What should I, as an Irish Member, know about the merits of the Scotch Roads and Bridges Bill, and why should I be obliged to master its details to the possible neglect of matters in which my constituents take a deeper interest? Why, on the other hand, should Englishmen and Scotchmen insist on having a voice in deciding the merits of Irish Water Bills, Gas Bills, and Railway Bills? These are plain questions and urgent questions which the Select Committee on Public Business seems to have entirely ignored; but they are important questions which will one day force themselves on the attention of statesmen, and demand recognition and settlement. You have sanctioned a policy which is extending the Empire every day and adding to your tremendous responsibilities. But domestic affairs are not less pressing on that account. They are constantly growing with the growth of modern civilization. There is now a school in every village, and the land is dotted with libraries and reading-rooms, like oases in the desert, where the people resort to drink of the fountain of knowledge. There is education, and information, and enlightenment everywhere, accompanied by discussion; and the consequence is that a thousand new problems of social, industrial, and political interest spring up every year which demand the consideration of the highest statesmanship. Looking at the condition of Germany and other countries, it must come home to the mind of every thoughtful man that some of the questions of the day, to which I allude, are questions which it would be dangerous to ignore. The transformation which the work of Parliament has undergone has been well described by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne (Mr. J. Cowen), and the evils of which he complains arise from the tendency to centralization, which has been growing stronger and stronger every year, and which the present Executive has forced to a point which is simply intolerable. It flatters the vanity of the House to assure it that when local institutions are brought under the control of the Government they will be under the control of Parliament also; and that, as the people control the House of Commons, they will always rule, no matter who may govern Statements of this kind were put forward in support of the Prisons Bill; but nothing could be more delusive. The prisons were handed over to the Government. But does any unofficial Member of this House imagine that any word or act of his will influence prison discipline or prison management? No; it was the officials of the Home Office, and not the Members of this House, who obtained control of the prisons when you centralized the prison system. They will take care to capture each new Home Secretary, and bind him hand-and-foot with the red tape of their system; and the same thing happens in each of the other Departments. The Minister presiding over each is in the hands of his own officials. By-and-bye, when these evils shall accumulate beyond endurance, the people will cry out, not against the tyranny of the Government or the tyranny of Parliament, but against the tyranny of confederated officials, against the tyranny of an odious bureaucracy, which is the most hateful tyranny of all. Surely it is time to make a stand against centralization, if local liberty and local power are not to be entirely surrendered. The necessity of doing something to facilitate Public Business appears to be a sufficient argument with some hon. Gentlemen in favour of these Resolutions; but if you are to go on tightening your Rules, and increasing your Business, the logical conclusion of your action will be a despotism which will dispense with Constitutional liberty and Parliamentary institutions. It will certainly be something like the irony of fate, or |