maintained, therefore, that the opponents of the Bill had raised a prima facie case that there were other sources of supply, and that the Select Committee ought to have gone further than they did; and that that Committee did not use the powers with which they had been armed to the extent to which the public had a right to expect. The Committee seemed to accept the statements of the promoters of the Bill without sifting them. Take, for example, the question of population. To begin with, there was a remarkable discrepancy on this point. When the Bill was first introduced into this House, a deputation from Manchester waited on the Chairman of Ways and Means, and, in presenting their case, the Mayor of Manchester said that the number of people the Manchester Corporation had to supply with water was 800,000. But a few weeks afterwards, before the Committee, it was stated by the promoters of the Bill that the number of people was over 900,000. He (Mr. Howard) did not know whether these people had been hastily manufactured in the interval, or how Manchester had increased so rapidly; but if the population of Manchester was to keep on increasing with such power of multiplication, any scheme for supplying them with water short of a reproduction of the Flood would fail in its object. One of the main allegations of the supporters of the Bill was that in less than 10 years there would be a deficiency in the supply of water at the present rate of increase in the population. Twenty-five million gallons was the present supply, and they admitted that that would be sufficient for 1,000,000 people; but they said that before 10 years the population of Manchester and district would have increased to 1,300,000, and that, therefore, there would be a deficiency of water; and they argued that, because it would take seven years to carry out their present scheme, there ought to be no delay in passing their Bill. But how did the Committee arrive at that estimate? They took the number of additional houses and warehouses erected each year in Manchester and the neighbourhood, allowing five persons to each house. That was the way the estimate was arrived at that Manchester and the neighbourhood would increase to so great an extent. It ought to be remembered, however, that the time at which these calculations were made was a time

of exceptional prosperity, when houses and manufactories were springing up like mushrooms; and he (Mr. Howard) did not think the number of additional buildings in any one year formed a sound basis on which to calculate the increase in the population. Taking the Census itself, the figures told quite a different tale. The increase was estimated by the Committee and by the Manchester Corporation to be very nearly 39 per cent; whereas, if estimated according to the last Census Returns, the increase would only be 12 per cent. Perhaps he might be told that the increase rose in every decennial period. On the contrary, the fact was that when they came to compare those periods since 1821 they would find a regular decrease. The county of Lancashire gave a return of 27 per cent from 1821 to 1831; from 1831 to 1841, 25 per cent; from 1841 to 1851, 22 per cent; from 1851 to 1861, 20 per cent; and from 1861 to 1871, 16 per cent. Taking Salford and South-East Lancashire, the percentage decreased from 30 per cent in 1821-31 to 13 per cent in 1861-71. Therefore, the estimate of the Select Committee was formed on entirely erroneous information. Beyond this, the independent investigations which the Committee had made had cost the Treasury simply six guineas and this in a scheme which involved an estimated outlay of £4,000,000; which estimate would probably increase much faster than the population which had to pay it, and which would more like reach to £6,000,000 before the works were completed. He, therefore, contended that the Committee had limited the nature of their investigations to such an extent that the inquiry was not at all adequate to the subject, and that they failed to give it that consideration which the public had a right to expect. However, they passed the Bill with certain alterations. They were very good alterations. They required that Manchester should supply all the towns on the line of conduit, and supply it at a profit of not more than 5 per cent. That did away with the speculative character of the Bill, because it was notorious that the object of the Corporation was to obtain a monopoly of this supply, and then to sell it to all the towns which might be hard up for water for as much money as they could get. The House of Lords threw out the Bill on the Standing

Orders, and it had been introduced again this year, amended in accordance with the proposals of the Select Committee. Therefore it was that he had now thought it worth while to ask the House to pause once more before sanctioning this scheme — a scheme which involved such great alterations in the features and characteristics of the Lake District which many of them prized so high, a scheme which involved the outlay of a sum equal to that which Her Majesty's Ministers thought fit last year to ask the House to grant for the preservation of the Empire. He asked the House, before sanctioning such a scheme, to institute a thorough inquiry into the whole question of the water supply of those districts. The importance of the subject was too evident to need demonstration from him. About 10 years ago a Royal Commission was appointed to consider the water supply of London, and they were also instructed to extend their inquiry to the provincial towns. But the nature of the first inquiry was so protracted that they could not go into the second, and they merely laid down a few general principles, and pointed out a few. gathering grounds for future investigation. The further investigation had not taken place, and if it seemed important then it must be much more important now. No doubt he should be told that because a Select Committee had already inquired into the subject there was no need for further inquiry; but he submitted that he had already shown that the inquiry of the Select Committee of last year was of too limited a nature, and was not such as the public had a right to expect. He thought he had also shown that their estimates of the increased population of Manchester and the probable requirements of that population had been much exaggerated. It was admitted that the present waterworks of the Manchester Corporation cost more than was estimated; and, no doubt, it was in order to make up for that that the Corporation had been obliged to sell the water to manufacturers which had been intended for future generations. This had occurred in years of prosperity, when new manufactories sprung up in the district, and that was the reason why they were short of water now. when their works ought to have lasted much longer. They were told on the

highest authority that the present depression of trade was due to over-trading. Perhaps they might not have an opportunity of repeating that process for some time to come, and no doubt they would be glad to postpone it as long as possible. He thought, therefore, in all the circumstances, delay would not be a misfortune to Manchester, but rather a great boon and benefit, by delaying or preventing the execution of this scheme, involving such an enormous outlay to the ratepayers, and calculated as it was to reproduce that distress from which they had so recently suffered. For these reasons, he asked the House to assent to the Motion. If a Royal Commission were appointed, they would insure that the Lakes should not be subjected to such operations as were contemplated by the Bill until other resources had been fully inquired into and found wanting; and if the Royal Commission should decide that it would be right and proper to use the Lakes for the purposes contemplated, they would lay down limitations as to interference with the natural features and characteristics of the district; but if the Bill were allowed to pass, and the Royal Commission were not granted, and if Lake Thirlmere were to be "restored to its ancient condition," they should submit to the inevitable result, and see their Lakes taken one after another and "restored" to their ancient or some other shape by some eminent engineer. He was afraid there were many persons, although he was not one of them, who would agree with the wish of an eminent Professor, that "rather than see the waters of Thirlmere brought to the tops of the houses of Manchester, he would prefer to see the houses of Manchester brought to the bottom of the waters of Lake Thirlmere." The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.

MR. WHEELHOUSE, in seconding the Resolution, said, that he was strongly of opinion that it would not only be in the interests of the people of the West Riding of Yorkshire, but also in the interests of the ratepayers of Manchester, to have this question of water supply from Thirlmere fully inquired into. He might say that no one would be more willing than himself to facilitate any measure for supplying the inhabitants of Manchester with an abundant supply of water; but he denied, in the first place,

that there was any danger of a water famine in that town; and, in the second place, he believed the Thirlmere scheme was the most expensive that could have been devised by the Corporation of Manchester or any other body of persons. The people of Manchester had quite close to them, in Derbyshire, one of the most admirable gathering grounds that could be imagined-a gathering ground which could give a supply of water for any length of time and in any circumstances, at a rate infinitely less than it would cost to get water from the Cumberland Lakes. There were, of course, those who would tell them that the people of Manchester knew their own concerns best, and that they could undoubtedly carry on their business better than anybody else. Now, while giving the people of Manchester every credit for the proper comprehension of their own affairs, he would accept any such statement on this particular question with more or less reserve, and for this reason that he believed the idea of gathering water for the legitimate supply of Manchester on the spot where it could be most usefully utilized had never been dreamt or thought of practically until the Thirlmere Water Scheme had taken possession of certain minds in the Corporation of Manchester. And, again, the Corporation of Manchester itself was not unanimous by any means in favour of the Bill, for after the scheme was introduced into Parliament there was ample evidence of this. It was well known that, in the first instance, it was the intention of the Corporation of Manchester to become practically a huge association of dealers in water; and that if they had been successful in passing this Bill in its original form, they would have proceeded to make their own terms for the supply of water to other towns. They also knew, as a matter of fact, that if the Corporation of Manchester succeeded in getting their Bill, even in its amended form, and were allowed to appropriate the Lake, a precedent would be established for other towns to follow. Other Corporations would assuredly come to Par liament and say-" We want this Lake, or that Lake," with the inevitable result that at last there would remain no available source of supply for West Yorkshire. Leeds itself, and the other large towns, it was true, could not be said to

have a bad supply of water; but when they came to the small manufacturing towns in the district running from Todmorden to the east of Leeds--a very wide district, indeed-they found that immense pressure had existed on account of the general want of an adequate supply of water. The water supply had been certainly deficient throughout this network of small towns and villages; and to allow any one Corporation to say to the inhabitants of West Yorkshire— "We will appropriate by Parliamentary powers, if we can get them, the whole of a large Lake, and you may get your supply as best you can,' " would be a matter calculated, not only to irritate, but to work public injury. It was with great cordiality, therefore, that he asked, on behalf of those who surrounded him in the neighbourhood of Leeds, that, before any legislation took place on the question, they in that district should have what they asked for-namely, a full and searching inquiry, not only for Manchester itself, but for the whole district to which he had referred. In the event of such an inquiry taking place, he sincerely hoped that it would not be confined to Thirlmere, or to any other Lake of East Cumberland. The whole question of the permanent water supply throughout the entire North of England should be entered into; and it should be ascertained whether Manchester might not have confined itself for a water supply to the immense gathering ground afforded by the rivers and other head waters in its vicinity. If it were possible to obtain water so close at hand, such sources would be far better utilized for the purposes of Manchester than that contemplated by the Thirlmere Scheme. In conclusion, he would again cordially press upon the House the advisability of adopting the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Cumberland.

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the supply of water to the manufacturing districts of Lancashire and the West of Yorkshire, and any deficiencies likely to arise therein; and, whether it is necessary or expedient to resort to the Westmoreland and Cumberland Lakes to make good any what extent, and under what conditions, such deficiencies in such supply; and, if so, resort should be sanctioned."-(Mr. Edward Howard.)

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