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suggested that he (Lord Eustace Cecil) should inform him of the names of the officers who advised him; but he really did not think that that was necessary, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman must be quite as, perhaps more, familiar with those names than he was. He knew the Director of Ordnance, and also the Head of the Gun Factory. They were all distinguished officers, very capable of dealing with the question. The Director of Ordnance had always said he was perfectly prepared to see introduced any improvement that could be carried out; he was neither a "muzzleloader" nor a breech-loader," but was anxious to obtain the best gun possible for the Service. However, there were very great difficulties in the way of making a sudden change. In gunnery, it was as true as in most other things"the more haste, the worse speed." It was absolutely necessary that any new step should be taken with great caution, and that it should recommend itself not only to military, but also to naval opinion. He would not now follow the hon. and gallant Member in his remarks with regard to the accident on board the Thunderer, because at present the Papers bearing on the subject had not yet been presented to the House, and because it was impossible as yet to say what change in the present system, if any, naval opinion would recommend. It was quite possible that, in consequence of that accident, it might be thought necessary to introduce breech-loading guns into the turrets of their ships. It was not, however, for him to anticipate what might be done in that matter. All he could say about it was that he felt quite certain the Secretary of State for War would cordially co-operate with the First Lord of the Admiralty and naval opinion in this matter; and that if it should be found necessary to make any great change in their guns the Government would not shrink from doing it, but would do it cautiously, gradually, and, he hoped, thoroughly. He hoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not press the Government too hardly. Considerable stress was laid in some

Heavy Gun Committee now sitting, and further experiments would probably be made if necessary. Two of their officers had been invited by Herr Krupp to attend some new experiments in Germany, and possibly their Report might point to some new invention in the Krupp system worthy of imitation. He could assure hon. Members that every effort was being made to keep up with public opinion in these matters all over Europe. At the same time, he thought it only right to remind the House that experiments in gunnery were extremely costly, and if they allowed a particular inventor to have his gun tested, they must extend the same indulgence, if not to all foreign, certainly to native inventors. The present system of muzzle-loading was only adopted after an immense amount of money had been expended, and still the inventors, as a body, were not satisfied. They never were, to whatever length the experiments were carried. Not anticipating any discussion of this nature, he had not brought any Papers with him; and he was, therefore, unable to go into the subject as fully as he might have done. He could only, in conclusion, repeat his assurance that as soon as a better gun was forthcoming they would not fail to introduce it. It was a mistake to suppose that a prejudice existed against breech-loaders in official circles. Indeed, as the hon. and gallant Member was no doubt aware, breech-loaders were in use to a certain extent both in their fortresses and on board ship, therefore the two systems had been working pari passu. He did not think there had been any unfair detraction of the breech-loading system; on the contrary, he believed there had been every desire to give the breechloading system a perfectly fair trial, and that civilians and officers of the Army and Navy were all animated by one wish, which was to secure the best gun for the country.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

ARMY ORGANIZATION-THE BRIGADE

DEPOT SYSTEM.-RESOLUTION. MAJOR O'BEIRNE rose to call atten

move--

"That, in the opinion of this House, the Brigade Depôt system requires amendment, as it is costly, unsatisfactory, and inadequate to the requirements of home and foreign service."

He said the system had completely failed to attain two objects with which it was introduced the furnishing of drafts for foreign service, and the welding into one harmonious whole of the forces in the sub-district, so as to form a nucleus of instruction for all auxiliary forces. Instead of that, however, it had been found necessary, in the two cases of emergency that had just occurred, to draft large numbers of men from other regiments in order to make up the strength required. For instance, to fill up the regiments sent to the Afghan Frontier and the Cape the regiments at Aldershot had been denuded of their best men. Then, again, there was a preposterous superabundance of officers at some of the depôts; in some cases there were only 80 men fit for duty under one colonel, one major, four captains, and four subalterns-a great disproportion of officers to men, whose number was utterly insufficient for the purposes of instruction to the auxiliary forces of subdistrict. The men ought to be raised to 900 at least, and then they would be able to furnish strength to the battalions if required for foreign service, and be a nucleus of instruction to the Militia regiment and Volunteer corps of sub-district. As regarded the cost of these depôts, it bore no relation to the money paid for the work done and the responsibility incurred by colonels with the Army; and the officers at the depôts were examples of idleness in the districts, which was very injurious. The whole cost of the depôts was £274,000-an enormous sum of money spent on an object which was a complete failure. This Estimate ought to be cut down this year. He begged to move the Motion which stood in his name.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the

end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the Brigade Depôt system requires amendment, as it is costly, unsatisfactory, and inadequate to the requirements of home and foreign service," (Major O' Beirne,) -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

COLONEL ARBUTHNOT said, he was not aware that these debates were coming on that evening, nor he was sure were

a large number of officers in the House, or they would have been present. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Member (Major O'Beirne) that the cost of brigade depôts was very disproportionate to the results obtained. The hon. and gallant Gentleman suggested that the number of men in the battalions should be increased to 900. No doubt, they would then be of much more use for the purpose for which they were intended; but surely, if the number of men were increased, it was only reasonable to ask that the number of depôts should be reduced. The fact was that a mistake was made in establishing so many depôts, and all soldiers, if not all Members of Parliament, were agreed that, however good the design might have been, the territorial principle was not exactly adapted to the size of England, nor to their habits and institutions. The brigade depôt system, it was perfectly true, had failed entirely as regarded the localization of regiments. It could never have been otherwise, for as soon as the two regiments at a depôt centre were filled up, all the recruits were taken away for general service, and sent anywhere all over the country. Again, in some of these centres recruiting was actually at a standstill had never, indeed, even begun; while in others a very large number of recruits were obtained. This showed that the system did not and could not work well everywhere. He did not quite agree with the hon. and gallant Member about the idleness of the officers. That depended a good deal upon the character of the commanding officer. He knew one depôt where the objection was the other way, and the duties of the officers were discharged with 20 or 30 men in precisely the same manner as if there had been 900 men in barracks. No doubt that was going too far, and was a mistake of the commanding officer; but, on the other hand, where there were few men. the officers usually had very little to do. If the regiments were kept up to a sufficient strength of officers, he was not sure that it was not a good thing for a certain number of those officers to have a pleasant and an easy time as they might have at the depôts. His principle always had been, and he commended it to everybody else, to make the Service as pleasant as it could be, so long as it was combined with a careful discharge

thing to be lightly undertaken. If they called to mind the number of days and nights that had been spent in the discussion of this localization scheme, they would feel bound to admit that it was one thoroughly accepted on the part of the country, and that the money for it had been voted with open eyes. As to the disturbance of these centres, if it could be shown that, without expense, certain depôts could be reduced without any loss, either direct or indirect, to the country, that was an obvious matter of administration with which anyone would be prepared to deal. But, as a matter of fact, when Viscount Cranbrook acceded to Office, he found in almost all these places either the contracts so far advanced, or the depôts themselves so far proceeded with, that he scarcely had the power, without throwing away good money after bad, to alter the original system. Again, why should they turn back, after having gone half-way, in a scheme which was decided on by Parliament, for which Parliament had voted large sums of money, and when the purposes for which the money had been voted had been only half fulfilled? He confessed he would shrink from the responsibility of lightly asking Parliament to depart from the scheme. There might be small points of administration, here and there, which might be remedied; but if hon. Members looked upon these depôts as being so many men required for duty, they altogether failed of their purpose; they were depôts, and did not purport to be battalions. Perhaps, at another time, it might be his duty to touch on some points where he thought some remedy might still be required; but he was certainly not prepared to go as far as the hon. and gallant Member. The uneven number of recruits was always a difficulty in this country. It was impossible that centres of recruiting should coincide with the depôts; but the distances between the two were short. There could be no doubt that the depôts had served their original purpose of supplying more centres of recruiting than there had been before. He would mention one other point. One of the great complaints of late years had been that the stores were too much centralized. Now, it was quite evident in the late mobilization that the more they were making use of the storehouses at the depôts to distribute the stores, the

better was the service of mobilization likely to be performed. He, therefore, could not see any reason for departing from this brigade-depôt system, at least, so far as the centres themselves were concerned.

MR. WHITWELL thought the brigade depôts were exercising a very beneficial influence. They were more or less affecting the whole body of the Volunteer Forces. He hoped that brigade depôts would soon become the means of affording instruction to the Volunteers. Question put, and agreed to.

PUBLIC BUSINESS-QUESTION OF PROCEDURE.-OBSERVATIONS.

MR. RYLANDS: I desire, Sir, before you leave the Chair, to enter a protest on the part of independent Members against the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in making his Statement on the Motion that you do leave the Chair instead of in Committee of Supply. While, of course, I do not presume to say that the right hon. Gentleman was out of Order, yet the course he has taken is one which, in my recollection, is entirely unprecedented, and one which has exposed the House to a very considerable amount of inconvenience. The right hon. Gentleman has brought in what in effect is a third Budget for the present financial year. That, in itself, is most unexampled, and in consequence of the extraordinary step taken to-night it has been followed by a Motion on going into Committee, which has led to a discussion of matters entirely apart from the financial proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is quite clear, if the right hon. Gentleman had adopted the usual course in moving that you, Sir, do leave the Chair, without making any observations, then the Motion on going into Committee would have come forward in due course, and the right hon. Gentleman would then have made his Statement with the Chairman of Committees in the Chair. The discussion in that event would have proceeded in a regular and orderly manner; but, as it is, I am doubtful whether even on the Vote, which will be put from the Chair when we have resolved ourselves into Committee, I should not be precluded from making general observations which appear to me to have been called forth.