The

go, and also lay bare its vices-for I think | suscitating. For my part, I do not bethey are many-so far as they go. I lieve we shall ever again have anything would therefore ask the Government like it. Although there is much to blame whether it is worth while for the Chan- in the present system of government in cellor of the Exchequer to get up to- India, that Government has done a great night and give us the sort of speech many things of great advantage to India which he has made? It differs from the which the India Company never attempspeech of the hon. Gentleman the Under ted; and which, if it had attempted, it Secretary for India. He was, I may would have failed in accomplishing. I almost say, loud in contrast with the recollect charging Mr. Mangles and Sir hon. Gentlemen who have spoken on James Hogg, then in this House, with this side of the House. We might have this fact, that in 14 years, according to supposed that the old times had come back, their own Returns, the India Company when we had members of the East India had not expended so much on roads, Company speaking as if nothing could bridges, and permanent works as the be more prosperous than the condition Corporation of the City of Manchester, of India. The Chancellor of the Exche- with 350,000 or 400,000 of inhabitants, quer has confined his remarks almost had expended in the same time for the entirely to the question of the relation- advantage of their population. ship between the Secretary of State and East India Company fell as it deserved the Council; but when he approached to fall, and I am sorry that its successor the end of his speech he was obliged to has not been more fortunate than it has admit that the time has nearly come been. The right hon. Gentleman the when it would be very desirable to have Chancellor of the Exchequer, during a such an Inquiry as the House instituted great portion of his speech, argued as if during the existence of the Company. there were really no case for Inquiry, In 1853 there was a Committee of this and then towards the end he seemed to very kind. I was not on it, though I relent somewhat, and feel that he was believe I took more interest in the ques- not sure of his ground, and to give more tion than any other hon. Member of the hope that at some not remote period he House at that time. The object of the would consent to some kind of Inquiry. Committee was to get an agreement that I think that if there is to be an Inquiry, the Company should be continued, and it cannot come a day too soon. I recollect that the then responsible au- ence has been made, in the course of the thority in this House made a speech one debate, to the prospect of a Dissolution. night five hours long. He rose at 5 I presume that there will be a Dissoluo'clock and spoke until 10 o'clock, and tion in the course of this year. That has during the whole five hours his language been the usual Constitutional course was one continued eulogy of the East ever since the Septennial Act was passed. India Company. I succeeded him, and ["No, no!"] Isee there is an hon. GentleI spoke till 12. Sir Charles Wood, the man on the other side who is very much then President of the Board of Control, afraid of a Dissolution. We are not and myself, in fact, occupied the whole afraid of a Dissolution on this side, and evening. I thought that I had answered I have no doubt that many hon. Genhis speech, but the House of Commons tleemen on the other side are not afraid. did not agree with me. And yet what If there is to be an Inquiry, the sooner happened? In five minutes time the whole we have it the better, because these misof the eulogy was blown to the winds. fortunes that we see before us, not loomThe President of the Board of Control, his ing in the distance, but close upon us, Colleagues, and almost everybody else, are growing greater almost every day, admitted that the East India Company and Parliament cannot one day too soon itself was an absurdity and an antiquated apply its mind and its utmost attention arrangement which could not be con- to the great and grave difficulties which tinued any longer. The moment the are before us. Recollect what you have Mutiny broke out the India Company done in India. According to the statewas at once got rid of. Some hon. ment of my hon. Friend the Member for Members, who do not know so much of Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), you extract from the subject as I have known, have been the people of India everything that can talking as if the India Company were be extracted with safety; you do not something that might be well worth re- know where you can turn for another

Refer

aggravate to an extent which we cannot measure, the great malady which affects that country at this moment. There is no doubt whatever that the policy which the Government have adopted within the last six months-a policy in which they have given up and repudiated the wisdom of our wisest Indian administrators-must aggravate to an enormous extent the disasters which have overtaken Indian finance and the difficulties with which this House is now called upon to grapple. I think the Govern

tax of the smallest amount; you have the Government in India, which must put on a licence tax, which is in point of fact an income tax, upon a man having no more income than 48. a-week; your salt tax is, I suppose, 2,000 per cent upon the ordinary common cost of salt, and having done all this, you have borrowed so much that you cannot borrow any more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has offered to lend, or rather he has suggested that he will lend-and I suppose he is meditating it as he meditated the Rhodope Grant-to the Indian Government £2,000,000, for which the Indian Government is to payment ought to have received the prono interest. That is exactly the terms position of the hon. Member for Hackupon which the people of this country ney with sympathy and with an offer of lent to the Turkish Government. These assistance. They might have objected terms were not in the agreement, but to his words and suggested something that has been the result. The money better; but, now that the question has has been lent, and no interest paid. We been brought before the House and call the Turkish Government bankrupt; seriously discussed, I think they ought but we say that the Indian Government to have consented to a Committee which is only in a position of momentary and should have given a thorough investigatemporary embarrassment. I ask you tion into all the troubles which now beto turn back to the speech which Sir set the question of Indian finance. I do Robert Peel made in 1842. I have not not ask for a Committee entirely on the referred to it for many years, but I re- ground of finance. My opinion is, as I collect that he pointed out to the House have already said, that nothing which what might happen if the time should you can do here can materially affect the arise when there would be great con- question of finance. That question is one fusion and embarrassment in the finances which arises in India, and must be deterof India, and to what an enormous and mined in India. I have come to the perilous extent a disturbance in the fi- conclusion I stated here in 1858, that it nances of India might affect the finances was absolutely impossible-and years of this country. We have approached are proving it to be impossible that the time that Sir Robert Peel referred India could be managed by a half-ato, and I recollect that people thought dozen members of the Indian Council, when he spoke he was going too far who are appointed only for five years, away to find an argument in favour of and who are, on the average, not more the great change which he was anxious than two years and a-half in office, with to make for the purpose of restoring the a Governor General at their head who is financial equilibrium of the country. not more than five years in office, and is We have come now to that point and, for the first year or two, in a manner, I say, that, listening to this debate, in learning the business of his great office. which I had not the least intention of You have a Governor General who had taking any part, I have been impressed never been in India before his appointwith the seriousness of the position in ment, who had never been in this which we are placed, and I am as- House, who had never been connected tounded that the Chancellor of the Ex- directly or indirectly with the politics chequer, who does know his multiplica- of England. You have half-a-dozen tion table-I think I have known Mi- such gentlemen as I have described, nisters who did not-who was brought presided over by such a Governor up at the feet of my right hon. Friend General, undertaking to manage the the Member for Greenwich, and who, if whole affairs of 200,000,000 of persons, he were not on that Bench, would in of 20 different nations, speaking 20 difmany financial questions agree with him ferent languages; and to say that such - I am astounded, I say, that the Chan- a thing can be done by half-a-dozen gencellor of the Exchequer should have tlemen sitting in Calcutta, with such a given his consent to the recent policy of Governor General at their head, is to make

mittee would be able to examine the whole question of the government of India. There is no single thing which any man could bring before that Committee in regard to the government of India which it would not be entitled to inquire into. I am sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not come out with a little more courage. He gave us to hope that there would be some sort of Inquiry at some time. If he thinks there is not enough of pressure now, before next year's Budget there will be a good deal more; but I would recommend him-and I am giving him disinterested advice-to agree to the appointment of this Committee. If he does not like the words of the Motion, let him take an early opportunity of sub

one of the most astounding assertions that could possibly be put into language. There never can be a Government which can be just to the character of England, and which can be just to that enormous population, until you have India separated into more completely independent Governments, so that the Governor of every Province and the members of his Council shall be nearer to those whom they govern, shall be more intimately acquainted with all their circumstances and requirements, shall not be required to carry on great policies on the Frontiers and aggressive wars, but shall be required to make annually his direct account to the Secretary of State here, by whom all these things will be judged. Before I conclude with regard to that Council, I should like to state what, per-mitting to the House a proposition for haps, many hon. Members do not know, that when the India Bill was before the House, Lord Palmerston, I believe, agreed with me that it would be well to have no Council at all. The Council was partly established to make it easy to transfer the Indian Government from, one body to another, and a great many of the old East Indian body were put upon it. Lord Palmerston was very much against having a Council so numerous, and on evening he came to me in the Ho and asked if I would support a prop tion to have it reduced. He thou Council of seven would be abundat for I did all purposes. I rather smilednot agree with Lord Palmerst things-and I told him tha not the slightest chance getting the sal, considerHouse to agree to his prop ment were in ing the position the Govethe Company.

that there had been no hindrance to the Government in the strengthening and restoration of their position, he thought the Government were bound to give the House some satisfaction that the future policy to be pursued would cease to be a policy of selfish aggrandizement a policy of inhuman butchery of the Native population. In the latest news from South Africa they had been given the glad assurance that the colours of the 24th Regiment had been rescued; but there was another item of information which ought to bring the blush of shame to the cheek of any man with a spark of humanity in his breast. They read of the destruction of a Native kraal and the burning down of 250 Native huts. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies, if he intended to propose that some decoration ought to be established to reward that branch of South African Service which consisted in the buning down of Native huts? temporary embarrassht be said of the to turn back to the speechness of a Robert Peel made in 1842. I habelieve referred to it for many years, but I ruld collect that he pointed out to the House what might happen if the time should arise when there would be great confusion and embarrassment in the finances of India, and to what an enormous and perilous extent a disturbance in the finances of India might affect the finances of this country. We have approached the time that Sir Robert Peel referred to, and I recollect that people thought when he spoke he was going too far away to find an argument in favour of the great change which he was anxious to make for the purpose of restoring the financial equilibrium of the country. We have come now to that point and, I say, that, listening to this debate, in which I had not the least intention of taking any part, I have been impressed with the seriousness of the position in which we are placed, and I am astounded that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who does know his multiplication table-I think I have known Ministers who did not-who was brought up at the feet of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich, and who, if he were not on that Bench, would in many financial questions agree with him - I am astounded, I say, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have given his consent to the recent policy of

VALUATION OF PROPERTY BILL. (Mr. Sclater-Booth, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Salt.)

[BILL 71.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read.

MR. SCLATER-BOOTH, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he thought he would best consult the wishes of the House by not repeating his arguments of last year in favour of the measure. It was substantially the same measure which had been read a second time last year, and some of the most important portions of which, up to the 17th or 18th clauses, had gone through Committee. The Government had, within the last few years, given more in aid of local expenditure; a local Budget was now brought before the House annually; increasing interest was being taken in local taxation and expenditure; and for those, as well as for many other reasons, it was extremely desirable that an uniform system of valuation should be established not only in every Union, but also throughout every countyespecially seeing that in the course of a short time the county rate would have to qontribute towards certain local charges. whie Bill had year after year been critimined by some of the most experienced conclument committees in the Kingdom, was abid given him the benefit of their are provnd assistance, and by the greater India coul? whom it was not only underdozen membepreciated, but earnestly dewho are appéhould become law. Since and who are, dad been under the notice than two years indeed, the rules which a Governor Gene the guidance of future not more than fiv been more and more for the first year the law as it stood. learning the businto some extent one of You have a Goveriained a great deal of never been in Indit having now passed ment, who had ndition, he felt confiHouse, who had neing it to the House. directly or indirectly alterations in the of England. You that, in accordance such gentlemen as I decided in Compresided over by sad eliminated the General, undertaking is. In future the whole affairs of 200,00 the Quarter Sesof 20 different nations, bunal would se ferent languages; and the county rate. a thing can be done by her Sessions had tlemen sitting in Calcussed from obGovernor General at theily applied to it.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Sclater-Booth.)

MR. J. G. HUBBARD assured his right hon. Friend that it was with no pleasure to himself that he rose to offer what might seem to be obstruction to this Bill. It was a Bill for which he had been labouring since 1867, and he hailed the Bill with great satisfaction, with one very grave exception. His right hon. Friend might lead them to suppose that the subject of his Amendment had no necessary connection with the Bill; but his Amendment was

The gross rental column in the valuation | cause with him in passing the present list would be deemed to be the value. As Bill as an essential preliminary to the to the functions of the surveyors of taxes, carrying out of his own proposal? he had adopted a suggestion made by the representatives of an influential Poor Law Conference, which coincided with the language of the 38th clause. No one could now scruple to accept the language of that clause. The general effect of the alterations would be that actual rent would more and more determine the value of property, both for Imperial and local purposes. They were now looking to some measure of value for the whole Kingdom, and nothing so well as rent could be adopted as a measure of value. He could, therefore, assure the hon. Member for Falkirk Burgh (Mr. Ramsay), who took so much interest in the Valuation Law in Scotland, "That no Valuation Bill, providing in a and wished to refer this Bill to a Select Valuation List a common authority for the Committee, that, so far as his object was assessment of rates and taxes, can be satisfactory to make rent a criterion of value, he unless it provides a common measure of value entirely agreed with him. for such assessment by levying Imperial taxes He would, as well as local rates upon the rateable value." however, point out to the hon. Member, that the value of the hereditaments of The Bill touched Imperial taxes. The this country was not always a matter of 31st clause made the valuation list the rent as between landlord and tenant, for authority for all local rates, income tax, á vast amount of house property was not and house tax. But it did more; it deheld on rack rent at all, and in other creed that, while rates were to be levied cases houses were occupied by their on the rateable value, taxes were to be owners. And there was, therefore, some levied on the gross value. Had his right difficulty in applying the principle. With hon. Friend left out the last part of regard to the Amendment of which his that clause, he would have a right to right hon. Friend the Member for the complain of his Amendment. That City of London (Mr. Hubbard) had clause maintained the present vicious given Notice, he thought it was ex-system, and it legalized in an unprecetremely hard that a proposal which had dented manner injustice and extortion exclusive reference to the incidence of in the name of the Queen. In the Bill the property tax should be brought for- now before the House there was a ward, he would not say as an obstruc- Schedule which provided a certain scale tion, but as a dilatory plea to the pro- of deductions from the gross value of gress of this Bill. His right hon. Friend property through which the rateable desired that the property tax should be value was to be ascertained; but while assessed on the rateable value. But local rates and payments were to be until this Bill had been in operation for levied upon the rateable value, the a considerable period, it was impossibls Queen's taxes were to be collected upon that there could be a rateable value the gross value, which was from 10 to 33 column which could be relied upon for per cent more. The real property of this the assessment of the property tax, or, country was greatly encumbered. It had indeed, any other Imperial tax. The been computed that landed property was Amendment would, therefore, defer the in the aggregate mortgaged to the exBill for a long time, and he put it to tent of one-half; but, while some prohis right hon. Friend whether he would perties were free, others were heavily not do better for his own object to mortgaged, and thus it occurred that a depend on the Bill which he had already property of £2,000 nominal, but of introduced on his own responsibility, £1,800 effective rental, was assessed to with the view of re-adjusting the inci- income tax on £2,000, and being liable dence of the property tax as to Schedules to a mortgagee for £1,600 interest, left A and B, and rather to make common but £200 to the owner. Yet he was