were possible to preserve a Protestant constitution without religious distinctions, was more than he could comprehend. But he said, an argument had been uniformly urged by the advocates for a committee, namely, that by granting the prayer of the petition, you would unite a divided people; you would add four-fifths to the strength of the country. But that, even as a supporter of the petition, he should be sorry to have used that argu ment. For the penal laws had been repealed in consequence of their good conduct, and their good conduct had always induced him to be their friend. But, ifin Ireland they were now a divided people, the prayer of the petition could not be. granted with safety.

in considering the oaths taken by mem. bers, as penalties on the Catholics of Ireland, and in confounding the acts which imposed them with penal statutes. He himself rather considered those oaths as tests ascertaining the principles of an elected member, before he was allowed to take his seat or vote. Dd the right hon. gentleman consider the oath of allegiance as a penalty? If so, it was only a penalty upon those who had no allegi ance, and did not apply to the Irish Catholic. Did he consider the qualification oath as a penalty? If so, it was a penalty upon every man who had not a freehold property sufficient for a seat in Parliament. For his own part he found himself bound to those constitutional principles to which he bad ple ged himself as often as he had taken his seat in parliament. For what member could doubt that, when he took the oaths at that table, he pledged himself to a Protestant constitution? or that those oaths were considered by the parliaments which enacted them, as the best means of preserving and handing down our constitution to posterity unimpaired? Under that solemn obligation he called upon members seriously to consider what was then required of them by the petition. Instead of continuing to be themselves the guardians of that constitution which they were bound to protect, they were required to commit that sacred duty to persons of a different description, by admitting them to seats in that House, men, however excellent in themselves, yet of those religious principles against which our ancestors had protested at the Reformation; and which principles those who managed the Revolution of 1788, no inconsiderable men, and the succeeding parliaments, took every possible means to guard against. For upon this part of the subject the question was, whether those against whose religious persuasions we had protested, could make a constituent part of our Protestant legislature. One would think that to state the question fairly, which he hoped he did, was sufficient to shew how impossible it was for parliament, under its presented to know the sentiments of Great obligations, to accede to that part of the Britain. The English members, perhaps, prayer of the petition. He had no ill- say the British or the united parliament will to any one because he differed from never yet has interfered upon this partihim in religious opinions—he did not com- cular question, and ask themselves, with plain of the Roman Catholics for wishing respect to legislative powers, "shall we to be members of both Houses-he' did now or ever interfere why should the not condemn them if they desired to par- peace and settled principles of this countake of all the rights of the constitution, try be disturbed? why should its religious.. without religious distinctions; but how it establishments be alarmed? The acts so

'I here had been a speech indeed by an hon. member, under the gallery, suggesting the danger that might arise from them in case of invasion, and describing them in such a manner, as he hoped did not apply to the Roman Catholics generally, or to any county in Ireland, except that of the hon. member. That for his own part he thought very differently of the Roman Catholics,-that to the great mass of the Roman Catholics, the elective franchise, had been of the greatest consequence, it had been the means of preserving them in. the possession of their farms, and he was happy to think it had been of the greatest service to them. The Roman Catholics, as a body, are now growing in wealth, independence and consideration, in consequence of the late acts in their favouradopt their interests and encrease their comforts. While suffered to live in peace and protected by the laws, they will ever be, as indeed they are, good and faithful subjects, and ready to defend their country, Let your care therefore be directed to the mass of the Roman Catholies, and to their happiness, and to trust to their good sense. for patriotism and allegiance.

But he said) the question seems hi-, therto to have been confined to Ireland, how far Ireland would be benefited or injured by such a measure. He wish,

The Marquis of Tavistock.-In offering myself to your notice, I rise, Sir, under a considerable degree of difficulty and embarrassment. Trusting, however, to the indulgence of the House, for having ven

much complained of by the Roman Ca-establishments of England were so far betholics of Ireland were acts of the Irish yond the suggestion of human contrivance, parliament-the statutes by which they that we ought to thank God for both were repealed were Irish statutes-they treat them with reverence, and never sewere internal regulations for that country parate them." -Great Britain was not affected by them. But the prayer of the present petition goes to the heart of the legislature-the very structure of the Houses of Parliament is at stake." How far then (he said) the people of this country, who under their pre-tured to obtrude myself upon its attention sent constitution, the admiration of all other states, have enjoyed such blessings, peace at home, and triumphs abroad, will admit of such alteration in the represen tation itself, I refer to you.-How long any minister who should propose such an alteration, or lend it his countenance, could Hold his situation in this country, I refer to you. For you know and feel that the constitution is Protestant, not only theoretically, but practically and substantially; that the church is intimately connected and interwoven with the legislature; that the church, as such, sends her members to the House of Lords; that the beneficed parochial clergy, as such, vote for members of the House of Commons; that the monarch himself, before the crown is pfaced upon his head, pledges himself to protect the rights of the established church. Which, as Blackstone calls it, "is an original contract between the King and his people." So far as attacks have ever succeeded against the church, they have equally affected the constitution; that the Roman Catholics of this country in their attempts against the church, had twice nearly overturned the constitution; that the dissenters and republicans had once overturned both; and that before the Hanover succession, the only periods of religious peace had been, when uniformity was enforced; though during the reigns of the present royal family, the constitution had been so strong as to bear with toleration almost unbounded; that it therefore seemed to him to have been for the sake of peace, that one religion, and one only, should be established. How then could he be persuaded, that to introduce another religion into competition with the established church, was the way to reconcile parties? He said he spoke no new language in saying the church and constitution must stand or fall together; that he was supported in this by one of the greatest men this country had ever produced and should conclude with his words. "The constitution and church

when so many gentlemen more competent than myself to throw light on the subject, are naturally anxious to deliver their sentiments; but from the importance of the interesting question now before the House, I cannot help feeling some anxiety to state shortly the reasons which induce me to support the proposition of the right hon. gent. for going into a Committee, to enquire what relief may be just or necessary, wise or politic, to concede to the claims of the Catholics of Ireland. In the course of the debate I have heard no argument that appears to me to have any weight against the proposition for going into a committee; for those gentlemen who have opposed this question, have contented themselves wholly with resisting altogether the Catholic claims. Now, let us go into the committee, and enquire fairly how far it is practicable to comply with those claims, or whether it may be wiser to reject them after a full and fair statement of the case on both sides.-Had this been done in the first instance, you would have avoided all this protracted and useless discussion. You would have heard what the Catholics had to offer on their parts; you might have stated what you require on yours: and whatever the result might be of your inquiry, even though it should be to refuse the claims, the Catholics would not feel they were indignantly thrust from your bar without a fair, a candid, and dispassionate hearing: they would, on the contrary, feel that you had given to their case a full, impartial, and deliberate consideration. They would be satisfied that your decision was the result of a candid and dispassionate investigation, and you would not send away from your bar four millions of loyal people disgusted at the rejection of their petition, without hearing what they had to propose, or stating what you required of them. They would say, "You have attended to our petition; you have patiently and impartially examined our claims: you

are of opinion that we have no case; at
least you have heard us, and we bow to
your decision." And I appeal to the
good sense and moderation of the House,
whether this would not be a wiser course
to pursue, than to dismiss from your bar
those claims unexamined, and thereby ex-
cite the discontents of so many millions of
your fellow subjects. I really think, Sir,
it would be a more dignified conduct on
your part, to approach the Catholics, and
say to them, "We are ready to concede
what you
wish, provided you are willing
to concede what we ask of you, as a rea-
sonable security to the stability of our
Established Church." With respect to
the Veto, about which so much has been
said, I am unwilling to give any opinion;
but I own it appears to me a novel pro-
position, calculated rather to embarrass
the question, and throw new difficulties in
the
way of its discussion, than to answer
any good purpose; for I question much
whether it can do any service to the Pro-
testant government, or produce any im-
provement in the appointment of the Ca-
tholic bishops; and I much question also
whether, in all events, it is a point to
which the Catholics can accede, consist-
ently with their religious scruples. Be
that as it may, I am for conciliating the
Catholics, but not without providing for
the necessary guards and securities of the
Protestant establishment. Both should be
regulated at the same moment; mutual
concession will produce mutual concilia-
tion: the Catholics, I am sure, will cheer-
fully meet you half way; and if the disci-
pline of their church forbids them to con-
sent to the Veto, sure I am that they will
readily acquiesce in such measures as may
be devised by the united wisdom of par-
liament, to guard against the nomination
or controul over their prelacy by any
hostile or foreign power. From the ex-
perience of the last century, and the high
and honourable testimony borne in the
course of this discussion to their exem-
plary characters, you can have no danger
to apprehend from the prelacy: but
strange as it may seem, the opposers of
this question appear to found their chief
apprehensions of danger upon that rever-
end class of men; for no man has pre-
sumed to call into question the loyalty of
the Catholic laity, to impeach the fealty
of the Catholic gentry, or of any class
of the Catholic people, which they have
testified by their valour and sealed with
their blood, in your cause, in ever

ter of the globe, and which they are again ready to testify in defence of these countries,-against the hostile aggressions of the common foe; and you have it in your power to redouble their ardour in your cause, and fortify your securities against the dangers that surround and threaten you, by conciliating their affections and uniting them with you by equal interests, in defence of those constitutional blessings in which they claim a common share, as their birth-right,—and which without their assistance you cannot effectually defend. Have you any thing to fear from the Catholics of England? Has any man ventured to call their loyalty into question è Or is there a gentleman who has spoken of their character, that has not borne the most honourable testimony to their unshaken loyalty, their unimpeached morals, and their social virtues? But even those considerations out of the question, the comparative paucity of their numbers would leave you little ground for appre hension. But look to Ireland, where the Catholic population out-numbers the Protestant as four to one. Does the government of that country express any fears on this account? Is the Protestant establishment there in any danger, according to the sentiments of the Protestant inhabitants? on the contrary, have you not seen the change which has taken place in the Protestant mind of that country? Is it now the desire of the Protestant inhabitants of Ireland, that their Catholic neighbours and fellow-subjects should any longer remain under disabilities on account of their religious tenets ? On the contrary I will venture to assert, because I have it from the best information, and I am borne out by the most respectable testimony in the course of this debate, that if the Protestants of Ireland were to be polled upon this question, nine-tenths of them would vote in favour of the present claims of their Catholic countrymen. And indeed, can it be supposed for a moment, that the Catholics, after a century of proscription, now seek a sanctuary under the constitution, only for the purpose of subverting it? Or that they will be less loyal under a system of mildness, of lenity, of protection, of indulgence, of liberty, than they were under one of penalty, of persecution, of proscription in their na-. tive land? What have you witnessed in the character of the Catholic, that can lead you to believe he is less fond of the a- liberty you prize, less warm in his de

conciliation! How much more effectually can you avail yourselves of their energies, if you grant their petition. Ireland would then become a new sinew of strength in the body of the empire. She will be added, in all the vigour of her zeal and her power, to your national resources. You would no longer have to consider her as a conquered country; you would no longer have to complain, that Ireland is the most vulnerable part of the British empire. I will not trespass longer on the time and patience of the House. I have endeavoured to argue shortly the two broad features of the case before us, viz. the justice and the policy of the measure, and have endeavoured to shew my reasons for thinking it is both wise and expedient to consult the one, and to acknowledge the other. In God's name, then, let me conjure the House to concede this question, not as a matter of triumph to any party, but of safety to all. I can assure the House that I am not actuated on this occasion by any feeling of hostility towards his Majesty's ministers, but I de bring with me feelings of affection for the Catholics of Ireland (arising from a sense of the justice of their claims) and of anxiety for the welfare of my country; and I therefore implore the House to go into the committee, and at least let the claims of four millions of his Majesty's loyal subjects be fairly, temperately, and impartially discussed. Conciliation to the Catholics would be strength to you, and the affection of the people your surest defence.

fering the last remnant of those penal laws that continue to disgrace our statute books, to oppress and degrade any longer our Catholic fellow-subjects. If any man still harbours a sentiment of distrust to the fidelity of the Catholics; if any man doubts their loyalty, let him look to the history of their conduct through a century of the most galling oppressions, while that loyalty was goaded by a thousand insulting motives, and stimulated by countless provocations, which might have roused the most insensible to resistance and rebellion-but to which they submitted with unexampled fortitude and patience:-virtues which, as evinced by them, have been sometimes urged as arguments against their emancipation; because proofs of that passive obedience and non-resistance charged on their religion as a tenet which rendered its professors unfit for liberty. Does any man doubt their attachment to the British empire, or their zeal and valour in proof of that attachment? I refer him to the annals of British triumph in every quarter of the globe for the last half century. I refer him to our scenes of military operation during the present war in Asia, in Spanish America, in Portugal, in Spain, in Holland, in Germany, in the Mediterranean;—and I refer him to the history of your naval victories in every part of the world. There he will find that some of the proudest trophies that adorn our standards or blazon the pages of our history, were won by Irish Catholics. And if he will look at home, and ask who are amongst the bravest defenders of our security, that recruit our armies for abroad,-that crowd the ranks of the Irish militia at home, and that contribute so numerously to manning of our fleets? He will find the same answer,-Irish Catholics. These are the men, whose valour can afford us a strong arm in the hour of adversity and danger: -and against such men we perpetuate a system of unjust and proscriptive laws, and and not only for the complete emancirefuse even to enquire into the nature of pation of the Catholics, but of every sect their petitions, or how far it is practicable in the country debarred of constitutional on any ground to redress the grievances of privileges on account of religious opinions: which they complain!-Redress those no man is more anxious than myself to grievances, reciprocate with your Ca- keep power from the hands of bigotry and tholic fellow-subjects the sentiments of intolerance. But then the difficulties mutual confidence and affection,-which which have been stated against the quesalone can render you strong, and impreg- tion I am not competent easily to surnable. If the Catholics of Ireland have mount. It has been said that the Veto proadhered to you with fidelity and valour posed for the adoption of the Catholics as a under so many causes of disgust and disal-preliminary to any entertainment of their fection;-how entirely you can make thein your own by kindness, by redress, and

VOL. XVII.

Sir T. Turton. Sir, I shall detain the House by a very few words. I can assure the House there is no gentleman who has spoken in favour of the Catholic claims more anxious to conciliate than I am, and if I thought what is now required could be safely granted, I would be as zealous for it as the warmest friend of Ireland;

claims, is a mere stalking-horse to embarrass the question; if so, I shall be the R [2]