the great body of the people of Ireland could not, religiously and conscientiously, help receiving and viewing as an heretical imposition on their faith; and the hon. member repeated, that he could not help declaring as he felt, from an attentive con

House. The noble viscount had been, pleased to give it as his opinion, that the influence of the Catholic hierarchy over the minds of the people was uncommonly great and of vast extent, and therefore, to be apprehended as formidable to the state; and the more so, as we were so wholly ig-sideration of this report of 1807, that the norant of the system of management of governments of both countries had for so the Catholic hierarchy, as to be left in a long a series of time, shamefully abandoncondition of difficulty, which precluded ed this most sacred duty, and one of the all middle way, or to that effect, (lord Cas- first objects of the general trust of the tlereagh bowed assent to the general sub- powers and authorities of the state. -Mr. stance of this position.)-Now, said Mr. Moore lamented exceedingly the impaMoore, I do on the contrary most unre- tience of the House, for which he could servedly contend that a full, extensive, naturally account by his own fatigue of and powerful influence of all classes of the long attendance: that he could not enclergy over their flocks, is and ever has large on a subject of so much real importbeen, the great fundamental principle, ob- ance to the strength, security, and pros ject, and end of every ecclesiastical insti- perity of the empire; a subject which he tution, and the first object and duty of the contended, and had to evince, had never clergy in all states throughout the civilized yet been argued on the true grounds and world; and if the impatience and unsettled principles which peculiarly belonged to it, state of the House would allow him, he and were exclusively its own; but, as he was ready to support his allegations by the had said he would be as concise as possible, authorities of the most ancient, of the best he should perhaps take some other opporand most approved writers on religious tunity of promulgating his sentiments subjects; and especially, on the very en- more at large; now unequivocally declarlightened and more applicable subject of ing, that he thought the applications made alliance between church and state which by our Catholic brethren of the empire, to is formed on general compact, "that the partake of and to support our constitution, state shall give the church its fullest pro- as he contended was their undoubted right, tection, and the church, in return, shall the greatest honour and compliment they give the state its utmost influence :" and could offer to the House, to the nation, and that if the clergy of the church with whom to the world; and he hoped they would this compact is made, which, except in unremittingly persevere until they sucIreland, is with the strongest, as having ceeded.-He should most cheerfully supthe greatest number to influence in obe- port the motion of his right hon. friend dience and submission to the civil state, for going into a committee. should lose their influence, the alliance, spso facto, is dissolved, inasmuch as " religion is established, not to provide for the true faith, but for civil utility."-And, said Mr. Moore, with regard to the difficulty in which the House and the country were left as to a middle way of decision, as it has been termed, if there was a difficulty, it was entirely owing to the neglect of ministers exercising the executive trust in both countries, whose special duty commanded that they should at all times consult, promote, and protect the peace of the church, in all its establishments, for the advantage and utility of the civil state.

Mr. Grattan observed, in reply, that the hon. member (the Solicitor General), had furnished in favour of appointing a committee, an argument the most decisive. He had totally and entirely misapprehended the resolutions of the Catholics, and in consequence of that misapprehension, had declared that no arrangement could take place-so that the two parties, the Protestants and Catholics, were to remain in a state of eternal separation. The mischief of such a supposition is too evident to require explanation, and the grounds for it too futile to require long discussion, but are a very strong and very Following up this opinion, the hon. mem-powerful argument for a Committee to ber adverted to the unhappy, decrepid, and almost nugatory condition of the establishments of the Protestant church in Ireland, as exhibited to the House in a folio volume in 1807 : an establishment which, though little more than nominal,

consider these documents, on which a mistake so pernicious has been founded.

I have in my hand the resolution of the Catholic bishops, in which they declare they are ready to yield, for the security of the state, every thing which does not af

fect the rights or integrity of their church. I Here is a ground for arrangement, and an argument for a Committee; but one of the hon. member's ideas, if generally adopted, would indeed render it vain and useless to proceed to a Committee, because he says that there cannot be, and that there is not an instance of a full communication of privilege, where there is not in the body so possessed, an acknowledgment of the plenum dominum of the crown. No Catholic country does make such acknowledgments. Your Catholic ancestors, who obtained the Great Charter they who so many times confirmed that charter-made no such acknowledgment. They all acknowledged the spiritual power of the pope.

have just heard of the noble marquis, who, good by inheritance, asserts the noble nature of his race, and promises to his country a succession of virtue.

I shall divide the opponents to the motion into two classes, those against the time, and those against the principle; but of the latter class there are scarcely any

so that the principle is generally acceded to. The Roman Catholic religion is then acquitted; it is then allowed there is nothing either in the composition of the Irish or of their religion, that bar their capacitation-the only thing desired is, security against dangerous influence in the nomination of their clergy, and the security so required, gentlemen have declared should not go to an influence to be possessed by our government in that nomination, but to a precaution against the nomination by a foreign power. But this precaution the resolution of the Catholic bishops bespeaks-they declare they are ready to give you every security which is consistent with the integrity of their church and their religion. What becomes now of the argument which says, the parties cannot agree-or the abuse heaped on the Catholic body, more especially on the Catholics of Ireland?

The hon. member who preceded him, denies that the frequent disturbances that have taken place in Ireland, have arisen from the penal laws. Certainly tithe, as he himself acknowledges, has been a more operative cause. But I beg to observe, that whatever outrages the Irish have committed, are greatly exaggerated, and that one reason why some of the Irish have not always been so attached to the law is, that the law has not been attached to the Irish. The laws have been enemies to their religion and their rights, and there- An hon. gent. has asked, whether in fore they have not been friends to the laws. the committee I meant to propose the The hon. gent. thinks, that the rights inveto?—I would, in the committee, make question are no great object to the Catho- our propositions to the Catholics, and im lic body: I differ from him. The with- pose nothing on them that was not perholding those rights degrades the whole fectly agreeable to them. I have no doubt Catholic community, and subjects the of their spirit of accommodation to every peasantry to insult and oppression.-The thing which is necessary for our security; right hon. gent. ask me whether I agree, but if we do not go into a committee, neion this subject, with lord Grenville and ther parties can make any proposition, lord Lansdowne ?-In return I ask him, and therefore I should suggest to the whether he agrees with them, or whether member, who put a question to me that his he agrees with his friend on his right side, instructions are for a committee; for withand his friend on his left? and whether, out a committee no part of them whatever agreeing with lord Grenville, he means to can be fulfilled. vote against him; and dissenting from his friends, he means to vote with them?

With regard to a former administration to which he has alluded, I can only say, that I do not subscribe to his charge. That administration gave up the military Catholic bill, because they could not carry it; and they resigned their offices, because they would not resign their principles a crime in which they will not have many imitators. The Viceroy of Ireland at that time seemed to me to have acted an honourable and an honest part; I am glad his qualities are not to die with him, but promise to survive in the instance we

Mr. Grattan took notice here of the injustice committed by those who charged the friends of Catholic emancipation with a design to subvert the Catholic clergy, What view could they have in taking such a part?-What! to conspire against their widowed and unendowed condition, in order to rob them of their no power-and their no magnificence. He then adverted to the argument which objected to the time, and said, he apprehended that the consent of the Pope would be necessary to any arrangement-that the Pope was now our friend, but if we delayed until there should be a French pope, we should find

thus supposed domestic nomination impossible, and having considered the veto impossible also-corrects the dangerHow ?-by disqualifying the laity-but as long as you disqualify the laity, you separate them from England. What then is to be our situation, according to the doctrine of the right hon. gent.? A clergy connected with France, and a laity separated from England-You think it better to have French bishops in Ireland, than Irish Catholics in parliament-this is a si

To

a situation, in fact, of the greatest perilwhere the cure aggravates the disorderwhere you correct an eventual communication with France, by a separation from England. To shew the better the nature of such a situation, I shall propose to the gentlemen opposing the motion, to lay before them the map of Europe, and let them be the arbiters of their own argument. There is Ireland, here England, and there France-the object must be to connect the Catholics of Ireland with England, and keep them separate from France. accomplish this, I shall present to those gentlemen two lines, one of communication, and the other of separation. How will they apply them? will they draw the line of communication between France and Ireland, and of separation between Ireland and Great Britain-ecclesiastical communication between the Irish Catholics and France, and political separation between the Irish Catholics and Great Britain. If they draw the lines in that manner, they give up the empire; and if they do not, they renounce their argument.

and would naturally wish to make an arrangement which should guard the kingdom from such an influence. The right hon. gent. says, it is impossible to do so-domestic nomination, he specifically says, is impossible. How we do try Catholic allegiance! sometimes we say no Catholic, no true Catholic, can bear true allegiance to a Protestant king; then we say, no true Catholic can submit to domestic nomination, but rather must suffer nomination of their bishops to be made by France. Thus we give Protestuation defended on account of its safety; tant authority for Catholic rebellion; but I must observe, that such cannot be the principles of any divine religion: there cannot be any divine religion that compels the subject to submit to the enemy of his country and if any professor shall say so, I ask that professor, has there been a revolution in heaven, that he shall come to preach diabolical doctrines, as if God Almighty had abdicated, and Lucifer was on his throne. We know the world to be his work, and if any man contradicts his dispensations here, either by misrepresenting the laws of motion or of morals, we know such a preacher belies the Almighty to damn his fellow creatures. But the present question is not left to surmise the fact is, that the nomination of Catholic is, almost universally, in considerable countries, domestic-the institution and the investiture must be in the Pope, but the nomination, with his consent, may be, and generally is domestic. In old France it was domestic-in Austria -in Russia-in Prussia-in England, with regard to Canada, domestic-nay, more, it is now practically domestic in Ireland, the Catholic bishops now in Ireland, nominate. The learned member quotes Doctor Milner as authority against a veto, and against domestic nomination. Dr. Milner proposed both-his propositions, read by my right hon. friend, made the nomination domestic, and he proposed, expressly, a domestic nomination in the Irish Catholic bishops, and he calls them nominators. Speaking of Dr. Milner, I beg to say, that I hope the sentiments which I have delivered may not be taken from Dr. Milner's publication. In one of his letters he supposes me to have said that canonical institution was the investiture of a foreign power, with the unqualified and arbitrary right of renomination to a portion of our magistrates; a representation too extravagant to deserve ob servation. The right hon. gent. having

He

Mr. Secretary Ryder explained. never said he entirely coincided with lord Grenville; but that he agreed with him that the veto alone was sufficient to destroy the present claim, without entering upon any other ground.

The gallery then cleared, and a division took place: For Mr. Grattan's motion 109; Against it 213; Majority against the motion 104.

HOUSE OF lords.

Tuesday, June 5.

[CRUELTY TO ANIMALS.] Lord Erskine stated that it was his intention to introduce a bill to their lordships, in which he hoped to avoid what was considered by some objectionable in his former bill on this subject. In this bill it was his object

to render those offences punishable, which were not so at present under the black act, which had reference only to the animal as the property of its owner: but at the same time to provide that such cruelty must be malicious. The present session being so advanced, he should take an early opportunity, in the ensuing session to bring it before their lordships.

He then entered into a very scientific discussionand exposition of the theory of fluids, and the principles on which the machine acted, and stated that there were means in our power to counteract its dreadful effects, some of which he pointed out. There was also another and more ingenious invention for a more difficult object, namely, the cutting off the cables of blockading vessels, when lying off a lee-shore; what he wanted to know, was this: as the subject had been looked on already as so important by great men, and by men of science, what had been done by government in the way of providing a remedy, and to what extent? For the purpose of ascertaining this he had framed a motion which he read ; desiring an account of the measures taken to counteract the effect of these submarine carcases and explosions, and of the torpedo triggers, &c.-The question was put, when his lordship demanded a division, on which the numbers were: Non-contents 25; Contents 8; Majority against the motion 17.

[STAMP DUTIES BILL.] The Earl of Liverpool having moved for the House to go into a Committee on the Stamp Duties

[SAFETY OF THE NAVY.] Earl Stanhope rose to submit a motion to their lordships, which he thought related to a subject of more importance than any set of motions that had been before them for a considerable time past, as it related to that on which the very existence of the nation depended, the British navy. He had some years ago called their attention to this subject, on which he should now speak plainly, as a man of science would speak and not like those who bamboozled people with mysteries, and involved every thing in hard words and terms from the schools. He would make every noble peer understand him. His lordship then adverted to the experiments tried some years back off the French coast, and since then in America by a Mr. Fulton,. for the ascertaining of a mischievous and horrid mode of destroy-bill, ing vessels of any size while floating in the water. He went through the history of these terrible inventions, which operated either by a line thrown into the water, which, meeting the ship, gave the opportunity to the machine to cling to the vessel, upon which the destructive explosion of gunpowder took place, which absolutely would cut any vessel in two (the proof of which, had been made some years back in Wolmer roads); or by the immersion of a machine with a trigger, which, when pulled, answered the same purpose; or by throwing an engine for the same purpose on a vessel. This person was invited over here, and his lordship had seen an engagement between him and Mr. Pitt and lord Melville, signed by them, agreeing in certain events to give him 40,000l. and so on, to an immense amount. After the failure of a trial at Boulogne, his claim was referred to certain scientific umpires who awarded him 15,000l. since that, he had made his experiments in America, where both Jefferson and Madison were present, and had been voted 5,000 dollars. His lordship was led at the present moment particularly to this motion, by a pamphlet he had received from America containing particulars with plates, illustrative of the nature and effects of the invention.

VOL. XVII.

Lord Viscount Sidmouth rose to submit to their lordships some observations on the measure then under their consideration. It would not, he said, be denied, That the amount of our expenditure and the mode of providing for it ought to be regulated by the peculiar nature of the contest, in which we were engaged, which was evidently one of indefinite duration: 2dly, That it was highly desirable to confine the annual loan within such limits, as that it should not exceed the amount of the sum purchased within the year, by the commissioners for the reduction of the public debt; and 3dly, That the instruments of accomplishing that important object were war taxes, and the surplus of the consolidated fund.

The purpose of this bill was to provide the charge for 16,000,000!. of which 8,000,000l. was the amount of Exchequer bills recently funded, and the remainder, that of the loan for the service of the year. This charge it was proposed to defray out of existing Stamp Duties, of which a part, (nearly half as he understood) was imposed in 1808, and the remainder at former periods, and the whole of which were consolidated by an act of the year 1808.

To one part of this proposition, though open to many observations, he did not X