Amendment (Mr. Redmond), by leave, | Committee-Public Libraries Acts Amendment withdrawn. Bill reported; as amended, to be considered upon Monday next. House adjourned at half after HOUSE OF LORDS, Saturday, 4th August, 1877. MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS-Second ReadingCommittee negatived-Third Reading-Board of Education (Scotland) Continuance* (171). Their Lordships met;- TINUANCE BILL. Read 2 (according to order); Committee negatived; Then Standing Orders Nos. XXXVII. and XXXVIII. considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bill read 3a, and passed. House adjourned at a quarter past One HOUSE OF COMMONS, Saturday, 4th August, 1877. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS-Second Reading Winter Assize Act (1876) Extension [276]; Church Patronage (Scotland) Law Amendment [231], negatived; Fisheries (Dynamite) [273]. (No. 2) * [136]—R.P. Committee-Report-Local Government Board's Considered as amended-Metropolitan Board of Considered as amended-Third Reading-County Third Reading-South Africa [195]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Joint Boards) * [269], and passed. QUESTIONS. TURKEY-BRITISH REFUGEES AT CONSTANTINOPLE.-QUESTION. MR. W. E. FORSTER: Referring to the Question which I asked yesterday as to British subjects who are reported to have taken refuge in Constantinople in a condition of great distress, I wish to ask the Government, Whether they have yet received any further information on that subject? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: We have not yet received any fresh information from Constantinople; but I have ascertained from communications which have been going on in reference to this matter that the Consuls find their time much occupied in having to make communications to the Foreign Office with regard to each individual case of distress, and it has therefore been suggested that greater latitude should be given to them in dealing with cases as they arise. A communication has been made by the Foreign Office to the Treasury with regard to the authority the Consuls-authority to deal with which Lord Derby proposes to give to cases at once without waiting for specific instructions. I hope, therefore, that the Consuls will, as the result of these proposals, have greater freedom in dealing with these cases, some of which I understand are very urgent. MASTERS AND WORKMEN-THE STRIKES IN AMERICA.-QUESTION. MR. J. COWEN: I wish to put a Question to the Leader of the House in regard to a matter which seriously affects the working classes in this country. I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman, Whether it would not be possible to obtain through Her Majesty's Repre- | Report, the Bill meanwhile to be resentatives such official and impartial printed, and when he saw that this Reports of the proceedings connected stage of the measure was fixed for with the railway strike in America as Thursday, he thought, as a matter of would during the Recess afford useful course, that it was Thursday week that information on the subject to employers was intended. Having gone for a little of labour and the working classes in fresh air into the country, he was astothis country, who are directly and in-nished to find upon his return to his directly affected by those proceedings. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I am not able to give an answer to the Question of the hon. Member at present: but if he will give Notice of the Question I will see whether I cannot do so on Monday. SOUTH AFRICA BILL [Lords.] [BILLS 195-271.] THIRD READING. SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL complained of what he regarded as the undue haste with which this Bill had been passed through its later stages. No doubt the proceedings in Committee were subjected to a great deal of obstruction by certain hon. Members, with regard to whom he should only say that although he could understand their objection to legislating after midnight, he could not understand the principles upon which they reconciled, even to their own reasoning, an obstruction to a Bill which proposed to give to another part of Her Majesty's dominions that federal Home Rule which they sought to obtain for themselves in Ireland. But what had been the effect of these proceedings? It was that in the course of two days and a night little progress had been made with the discussion of the really important clauses of the Bill; and when, at a reasonable hour on Wednesday morning, they came to discuss these clauses, it turned out that many Members who had sat through the night were so fatigued physically that it was impossible that the clauses could be fairly discussed, and he ventured to say that they were not fairly discussed. ["Oh, oh!"] He thought that there was a kind of implied, if not express, agreement with the Government that the discussion of some of these very important Amendments should be postponed until the Mr. J. Cowen Parliamentary duties that the Bill had been run through this stage at a Morning Sitting. It seemed to him that the undue haste with which the Bill had been pressed forward was totally unnecessary, because it had already passed the House of Lords. The result of this haste was that there were very considerable blemishes on the face of the Bill which would remain to the end of time if it passed in its present shape. There was one very important subject to which he wished once more to allude, because he had proposed an Amendment in regard to it which obtained a far greater support in that House than that accorded to any other Amendment which had been moved. The Amendment was that Confederation under the Bill should not take place unless the Cape Colony was a Member of that Confederation. It had been represented by the Under Secretary that what he proposed was that the Cape Colony should be placed in the position of being able to say to the other Colonies-"We will not confederate; no more shall you." That was not his position at all. He was not averse to the Confederation of the other Colonies, provided it was a proper Confederation under a proper Constitution; but what he still maintained was that the Constitution under this Bill was not a proper Constitution, or one under which Natal and the Transvaal could properly confederate. He was willing to admit that the Government, in concert with the right hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) had agreed to an Amendment of enormous importance-namely, that Native representation should in some shape be provided for. He was free to admit that if the clause of the Bill as it stood with that Amendment could be fairly, fully, and successfully carried out, his objection to a Confederation of Natal and the Transvaal would be removed; but he confessed that he was still inclined to doubt whether it was possible at the present time, with the state of progress of these Colonies, to carry out such a representation of the Natives as would satisfy both parties. If it were not possible at the present time to obtain a proper system of election of Native Representatives, then it would be necessary that they should have nominated Representatives, and these Colonies, if confederated at all, would be confederated under what was known as a severe Crown Colony system. There were other points in the Bill which showed marks of the haste with which it had been pushed forward; but he was delighted to find that an Amendment proposed by the right hon. Member for Bradford had been accepted, which would go far to settle the two points which he himself thought extremely objectionable in the Bill as it was originally drawn. That Amendment was to the effect that laws relating to emigration and the tenure of land should not be passed without the previous sanction of Her Majesty. As regarded emigration, he was inclined to think that no better arrangement could possibly be made; but as to the tenure of land, he rather thought they had gone so far that they would entangle themselves very considerably. There was no provision in the Bill enabling the present most unjust laws as to the tenure of land to be got rid of; and before any free Constitution was given to the States under this measure Her Majesty's Government should insist that those laws should be done away with. According to the Bill as it now stood, Her Majesty's Government, without the consent of Natal, the Transvaal, or any other Colony, might annex them bodily to the Cape. He was glad to have the assurance of the Under Secretary that there was no intention to do so; but it was a distinct blot on the Bill, showing the haste with which it had been passed through its later stages, that they had a clause in it which gave such enormous power to the Government which it was never intended to give or that they should exercise. MR. W. E. FORSTER could not agree with his hon. Friend that the Bill had been pushed through with undue haste, or, indeed, with haste at all. He frankly declared he could not look back to many Bills-quite apart from the extraordinary opposition that had been recently manifested in the House-that had been better or more adequately dis cussed than was the South Africa Bill. He regretted that the House had not the advantage of the presence of his hon. Friend on the previous occasion when the Bill was under consideration; but he thought that when his hon. Friend had been a few years longer in the House, he would not at this period of the Session be likely to mistake Thursday for Thursday week. He could not agree that there had been any important question connected with the Bill that had not been fairly discussed; and it would be very disadvantageous if it were to be supposed either in the Colonies or in this country that the Bill had been passed through with haste or without discussion. He was inclined to agree with his hon. Friend's view as to union without the Cape; but a large majority decided against that, and it would have been useless to moot the question again on the Report. With regard to the Native question, he did not know how it could be put better than it was now by the Bill, and he thought his hon. Friend ought to be satisfied. According to his experience, very few Bills had passed through the House of Commons with fuller discussion, and, in reality, with more care. When he returned to the House after a short absence on Wednesday, he found a great many Members who showed no signs of fatigue at all-his hon. Friend being one of them-and the result was that the Bill underwent a very good discussion, which lasted for two or three hours, and was confined to the details of the measure. He had merely interposed now because he thought it was not desirable that the Bill should go out to the Colonies with the character stamped upon it of having been passed in haste. He believed our fellow-countrymen at the Cape would see that the Parliament of this country had been earnest and sincere in making the offer to them of a possible Confederation for their own good-that it was for them that Parliament was doing it, and not for this country; and that we had put ourselves to some inconvenience in order that the offer should be fairly made. MR. PARNELL said, he was afraid that the remarks made by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford would not satisfy the country that the Bill had not been passed with undue haste, nor that the measure would affect that good to the Colonists which it pro- | the House the clause provided that the fessed to have in view. He agreed with Commissioners, in making a statute for the right hon. Gentleman that it would a College, should have regard, in the be unfortunate if there should be an im- first instance, to the maintenance and pression in the Colonies that the Bill purpose of such College as a place of had not received full consideration by education. The clause, as amended by Parliament; but he thought the right the Lords, provided that the Commishon. Gentleman would have done better sioners in making statutes for the Unito join with those who endeavoured to versity should have regard to the insecure a full discussion of the Bill than terests of education, religion, learning, to join with the Government in carrying and research; and in the case of a statute it through by force, almost at the point for a College should have regard, in the of the bayonet. first instance, to the maintenance of the College for these purposes. He contended that the clause, as amended, did not give the first place to the interests of education. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth disagree with The Lords in the said Amendment.". (Mr. Dodson.) MR. J. LOWTHER said, that the entire course of proceeding adopted by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) throughout the whole course of the Bill had demonstrated a total absence of familiarity with the proceedings of the House. The hon. Gentleman had wasted a good deal of time, for in objecting to the ordinary formality of the postponement of a clause MR. GATHORNE HARDY thought he had started a hare which ran for the Amendment in the clause was almost several hours. If the hon. Member had identical with it when it left the House devoted some few minutes to consulting of Commons. He hoped hon. Members any authority on the Rules of the House would not consider it necessary to divide he would have saved much valuable time. on the Amendment. It merely provided He (Mr. Lowther) entirely concurred that religious instruction should also be with the right hon. Member for Brad-given in the Colleges, and surely there ford. The character of the Bill was ex- was no occasion to disagree with their ceptional; but it had been carefully and Lordships on that. fully discussed, notwithstanding the extraordinary interruptions and opposition it had to encounter, and he had every confidence that it would prove acceptable to the inhabitants of the South African Colonies. Bill read the third time, and passed. UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAM- CONSIDERATION OF LORDS AMENDMENTS. MR. BERESFORD HOPE, in supporting the Lords' Amendments, thanked the Government for its procedure. He trusted hon. Members did not want to make the Colleges merely boarding schools. The sustentation of Research, religious and secular, had always been and would, he trusted, always continue a reason of their existence. MR. GOSCHEN was of opinion that the Lords' Amendments meant more than the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for War expressed. For his (Mr. Goschen's) part he should oppose the Amendment on the grounds that the Commons' Committee had decided that regard should be had, in the first in Lords Amendments agreed to as far as stance, to education. the Amendment in page 5, line 38. Amendment in page 5, lines 38 and 39, to leave out the words "and purposes of such college as a place of education," in order to insert the words "of the college or hall for those purposes," the next Amendment, read a second time. MR. DODSON moved to disagree with the Lords' Amendment. As the Bill left Mr. Parnell Question put. The House divided:-Ayes 27; Noes 62: Majority 35.-(Div. List, No. 300.) Amendments agreed to, as far as the Amendment in page 6, line 21. Amendment in page 6, line 21, to leave out the words "sub-section 6," the next Amendment, read a second time. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with The Lords in the said Amendment."-(Mr. Secretary Hardy.) MR. DODSON proposed to disagree with another Amendment. The Commons had inserted among the other powers a power to abolish Professorships and Lectureships, and by the Lords' Amendment, with which he proposed that the House should disagree, that power was omitted. The power was of some importance, and he hoped the Government would insist on its retention in the Bill. It was simply an enabling power. MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, he thought it was hardly worth while coming to a difference with the Lords upon this matter. They had unanimously struck out the words, because it was felt that it might discourage future endowments. The powers of the Commissioners were quite large enough without these words. MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSEN contended that it was preferable that this power should be given in an open and direct manner, and that its existence should not be left in doubt. There might be a Professorship which failed to attract students, and for which it might be desired to substitute another. Upon going into Committee upon the Bill, they had a long debate which related mainly to the proposed extension of the Professorial system, which was much condemned on the other side of the House. If the power to abolish Professorships, once having being inserted in the Bill, were now struck out, an erroneous interpretation might be put upon the views and intentions of Parliament. Leave out Clause 60, and insert Clause E, the next Amendment, read a second time. MR. GOSCHEN stated that the House of Lords had omitted Clause 18, relating to religious instruction, and had combined it in part with Clause 59. In the Bill, as it left the Commons, Clauses 18 and 60 were as follows: "18. The Commisssioners, in statutes made by them, shall make provision, as far as may appear to them requisite, for the due fulfilment Universities Tests Act, 1871 (relating to of the requisitions of sections five and six of The religious instruction and to morning and evening prayer in Colleges); but they shall not make directly or indirectly through the consolidation or combination of any office or emolument with any other office or emolument, whether in the University or in a College, the entry into holy orders or the taking of any test a condition of the holding of any office, or emolument to which that condition is not at the passing of this Act attached. "60. Nothing in this Act shall authorize the Commissioners, by a statute made by them, to endow, wholly or in part, an office of an ecclesiastical or theological character by means of any portion of the revenues or property of the University or College not forming, when the statute comes into operation, the endowment or part of the endowment of an office of that character." As amended by their Lordships, these clauses were now combined in a single clause, which stood as follows:— "59. The Commissioners, in statutes made by them, shall make provision, as far as may appear to them requisite, for the due fulfilment of the requisitions of sections five and six of The Universities Tests Act, 1871 (relating to religious instruction and to morning and evening prayer in Colleges); but, except for that purendow wholly or in part an office of an ecclepose, they shall not, by a statute made by them, siastical or theological character by means of any portion of the revenues or property of the University or a College not forming, when the MR. GATHORNE HARDY said, he statute comes into operation, the endowment, or part of the endowment, of an office of that personally preferred the words to re-character, and in any statute made by them, main; but he thought it scarcely necessary to differ with the Lords on the matter, especially as they were not essential. He would, however, in deference to what had been urged, move to disagree with the Lords' Amend ment. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Amendment agreed to, as far as Amendment to leave out Clause 60, and insert Clause E. shall not make directly or indirectly through the consolidation or combination of any office or emolument with any other office or emolument, whether in the University or in a College or Hall, the entering into holy orders or the taking of any test a condition of the holding of any office or emolument existing at the passing of this Act to which that condition is not at the passing of this Act attached." He maintained that the clause, as it now stood, would override the general spirit of the Bill, and the principle for which the Government had all along contended. The Lords' Amendment would give the Commissioners power to apply funds not |