subject, he was bound to say that he considered the present Bill too centralizing. He should have preferred seeing the English Bill coupled with a County Boards Bill for England, and this Bill for Ireland with another Bill for the improvement of the Grand Jury system in that country—for he objected to too much centralization, unless accompanied with more local self-government. With these views he might be allowed to differ with Her Majesty's Government in the mode in which the Bill was conceived. He quite admitted the necessity of a measure of the kind, though he would have preferred a Bill on the lines drawn up at different times by preceding Governments. He should liked to have seen much greater power given to the Lord Lieutenant to close unnecessary gaols, to regulate authority and discipline in the various prisons, and to remove the longer-sentenced prisoners to a central prison, as was already successfully done in Scotland, where the longer-sentenced prisoners were removed from local prisons to a central prison at Perth. He could not help thinking that a Bill might have been devised on a plan which might have carried out all the excellent objects of the present Bill, without giving such a blow to the local self-government of the country. He would be glad to have some information in reference to the Prisons Board, and whether the 10th clause would deal with the present Board; and he would suggest that the Reports to be made to Parliament and the Secretary of State should also be sent to the Grand Jurors-the local authority in Ireland. In that country there was an anomalous body called Local Inspectors, and he never could see the necessity for having such officers. He hoped that power would be taken to abolish them, as he thought that the Visiting Justices and the Government Inspectors would be amply sufficient to carry out all the provisions of the Bill. Some clauses had been added to the Bill which he considered were wholly unnecessary. He trusted that the Bill would be a success, aud that the evils which existed in different parts of Ireland, under the present system, would be quite eradicated. THE EARL OF LIMERICK said, that he would have been glad if more time could have been given to consider this Bill, which was only printed and issued Earl Spencer yesterday. He thought that the Bill would greatly tend to economy in the management of the prisons in Ireland, and that it would promote uniformity of discipline. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accodingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow. CLAIMS OF PEERAGE. STANDING ORDER NO. 86. AMENDED. THE EARL OF REDESDALE, after pointing out the great importance of preserving all evidence, documents, and papers so that they could be produced in the cases of Claims to Peerage, moved— "That Standing Order No. LXXXVI. (formerly 128:) be amended by inserting after the first paragraph thereof the following words, directions shall be observed with regard to docuviz. (In all Claims of Peerage the following ments delivered in at the Bar in evidence, and the examination of those documents when printed by order of the House: "1. In the case of documents in public custody within the United Kingdom, officially certified excerpts of such documents, if deemed sufficient copies thereof (or officially certified extracts or by the Committee,) shail be delivered in by a witness, who will be required to swear that he has examined them with the originals, and that the copies are correct. (With regard to documents in public custody in England, the originals, as heretofore, must be produced at the Bar by an officer of the Department having custody of the same) : "2. In the case of documents in private custody, the original documents, and copies there of, shall be delivered in by a witness, who will be required to swear that he has examined the copies with the originals, and that the copies are correct: "3. In unopposed Peerage Claims the print shall be examined against the original documents where the same have been delivered in, or, in other cases, against the officially certified copies, by a competent examiner appointed by the Crown Agent. In opposed Peerage Claims, the Crown Agent shall, if he think fit, appoint a competent examiner for the purpose of the above examination. The cost of the examination shall be borne by the Petitioner adducing the evidence, and shall be paid by him from time to time whenever the Crown Agent shall deliver to him or to his agent an account of such charge, or of any portion of the same." ") Motion agreed to; Standing Order to be printed, as amended. (No. 186.) JUDICIAL BUSINESS-APPEALS. STANDING ORDERS AMENDED. THE LORD CHANCELLOR, in mov ing "That Standing Order No. III., applicable to Appeals, be amended by inserting after the word (limited) the following words (by Standing Order No. V.'): "That Standing Order No. IV., applicable to Appeals, be amended by inserting after the word (Respondent') in line 20. the following words ('Ordered, that in the event of such sureties or such substitute not being deemed satisfactory by the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Appellant or Appellants shall, within three weeks after the presentation of the Appeal, present a petition to the House in the matter of the said Bond or Recognizance'): "That Standing Order No. X., applicable to Appeals, be vacated, and the following Order be made a Standing Order in lieu thereof: ("ORDERED, That the Clerk of the Parliaments shall appoint such person as he may think fit as Taxing Officer, and in all cases in which this House shall make any order for payment of costs by any party or parties in any cause without specifying the amount, the Taxing Officer may, upon the application of either party, tax and ascertain the amount thereof, and report the same to the Clerk of the Parliaments or Clerk Assistant: And it is further Ordered, that the same fees shall be demanded from and paid by the party applying for such taxation for and in respect thereof as are now or shall be fixed by any resolution of this House concerning such fees; and the Taxing Officer may, if he think fit, either add or deduct the whole or a part of such fees at the foot of his report: And the Clerk of the Parliaments or Clerk Assistant may give a certificate of such costs, expressing the amount so reported to him as aforesaid, and in his certificate regard shall be had to the sum of 2001. where that amount has been paid in to the account of the Fee Fund of the House as directed by Standing Order No. IV.; and the amount in money certified by him in such certificate shall be the sum to be demanded and paid under or by virtue of such order as aforesaid for payment of costs," ") said, that when the Bill of 1875 for the improvement of the Judicature of the country was passed complaints were made of the great expenses attendant upon Appeals to that House, and a promise was given that some alteration should be attempted. That had now been done by the experienced officer who attended to the Judicial Business of the House. These new Orders would make the scale of costs of Appeals to that House the same as in Appeals to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. The reduction would be considerable and beneficial to the suitors, as well as making the costs uniform in both Courts; he, therefore, begged to move that these Orders be agreed to. Motion agreed to. COSTS OF APPEALS. the Parliaments had laid upon the Table revised Forms of Bills of Costs relating to Appeals, in accordance with the alteration of the Practice under the Appellate Jurisdiction Act of last Session. The same was ordered to lie on the Table. DESTRUCTIVE INSECTS BILL [H.L.] A Bill for preventing the introduction and spreading of Insects destructive to Crops-Was presented by The LORD PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 188.) House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Two o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuesday, 7th August, 1877. MINUTES.]-SUPPLY-considered in Committee -NAVY ESTIMATES-CIVIL SERVICES REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, PACKET AND POST OFFICE SERVICES-SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES-Resolutions [August 6] reported. WAYS AND MEANS-considered in CommitteeConsolidated Fund (£14,938,668) PUBLIC BILLS-Committee-Report-Public Record Office* [182]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Hyde, &c.) * (re-comm) [263]; Fisheries (Dynamite) * [273]. Considered as amended-Third Reading-Colonial Stock [228], and passed. * Third Reading. Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Artisans and Labourers Dwellings) [277]; Winter Assizes Act (1876) Extension * [276], and passed. Withdrawn-Valuation of Lands and Hereditaments* [256]. QUESTIONS. PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS-PUBLIC HOUSES.-QUESTION. SIR EDWARD WATKIN (for Mr. WATKIN) asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he is prepared to introduce a Bill in the next Session of Parliament to provide for the closing of public houses during the hours of polling at Parliamentary Elections? MR. ASSHETON CROSS: No, Sir, THE LORD CHANCELLOR ac-I am not prepared to introduce a Bill quainted the House that the Clerk of for the closing of public-houses during for the partition of the Ottoman Empire; and, if so, whether this is the cause of our present inaction where British interests are so seriously imperilled? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No, Sir, Her Majesty's Government are not in possession of any information upon this subject which I could communicate to the House. 535 Irish Church Temporalities (COMMONS} Commissioners.-Question. 536 polling hours at Parliamentary elections. | tween Russia, Austria, and Germania By the 23rd section of the Licensing Act the justices of a locality in which, in any case, tumult is expected, have power to close public-houses during any time they may think fit-not with reference to polling especially, but in all cases in which tumult is likely to arise. This subject was much considered by the Select Committee which sat in 1870, and they reported to the House that although the witnesses examined naturally looked upon the question entirely from the point of view of order and tranquillity, the Committee felt that the inconvenience to the public generally of such a measure would be so great as to outweigh its advantages. NAVY-ADMINISTRATION OF THE ADMIRALTY.-QUESTION. CAPTAIN PIM asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Her Majesty's Government will, before filling up the office of First Lord of the Admiralty, take into consideration the advisability of making such changes in the administration of that department as, after due deliberation, shall be deemed best to ensure for the Nation the possession of an efficient Navy, whereon the wealth, safety, and strength of the Kingdom chiefly depends? THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The Government are always anxious to do what they can to improve the administration of all Departments of the Government, and, undoubtedly, the Admiralty is one of such importance that the attention of the Government is constantly directed to any question that may arise with regard to improvements in its administration; but we do not think that there would be much wisdom in undertaking to make changes at the present time while the office of the First Lord is vacant. We think it would be better to wait until that office is filled, and to have the advantage of the First Lord's experience and advice in making them. TURKEY-PARTITION OF THE OTTO MAN EMPIRE.-QUESTION. DR. KENEALY asked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Her Majesty's Government have received any information of an understanding be Mr. Assheton Cross DR. KENEALY: The Answer of the right hon. Gentleman not being satisfactory, I shall repeat the Question tomorrow. IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES COM MISSIONERS-SALE OF LANDS. QUESTION. MR. BRUEN asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether the statement made in page 4 of the last Report of the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners-"that 4,536 small proprietors had, up to the end of 1876, been created by the operation of the Irish Church Act"-is intended to imply that 4,536 separate and distinct persons became, by the sales to them of their holdings under the Irish Church Act, possessors of real property, not having been so before such sales; and, if not, what qualification, and to what extent, must be placed on the above statement; and, whether he will consent to lay upon the Table of the House a Return of the names of these 4,536 persons, with such details as may identify them, and the sales made to each of them, or any other Returns by means of which the exact number of persons who, up to the end of 1876, were created proprietors by the operation of the Irish Church Act, may be ascertained? SIR MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH: I am informed by the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners that, in a few cases out of the 4,536 holdings reported by them as sold to tenants up to the end of 1876, there was a consolidation of holdings; and therefore the number of proprietors created may not possibly have been more than 4,400. .About 10 per cent, or 450 holdings, were conveyed to persons not tenants, the tenants having paid the purchase-money and directed the conveyances to be made to those other persons. The tenants were consenting parties, and signed the deeds. The names of all purchasers of Church lands up to the first of July, 1876, were given in August last, in pursuance of a Return made to an order of the House of Lords. The Commissioners propose to give a continuation of this Return in their next Report, bringing the sales and the names of the purchasers up to the end of 1877. COMMERCIAL TREATIES FRANCE AND ITALY.-QUESTION. some cases to the extent of 100 per cent; whether this change in the tariff was first communicated to the Government on the 24th of July only, while the new rates came into operation on the 1st of August; whether the intention of concluding this arrangement with other countries was concealed from the British Diplomatic and Consular Staff in Spain; and, whether the Foreign Office will not at once obtain in England translations of the new tariff for the information of the commercial community rather than wait till a translation can come from Spain? was, as the House was perfectly well aware, an Ordinance for the regulation of the collection of the customs at Gibraltar. The Spanish Government had lately promulgated two tariffs which came into force on the 1st of August, and the first of those tariffs was a general tariff; whilst the second was one which MR. WHITWELL asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether a commercial treaty has been concluded between France and Italy; MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, there whether he can now lay it upon the was no such Ordinance as that mentioned Table of the House; whether Italy was in the Question before the Colonial Office not informed that this Country was pre--[Mr. RYLANDS: Oh, oh!]-but there pared to negotiate a new treaty with Italy at the time any treaty between France and Italy was negotiated, in order that the interests of England might be duly considered; and, if he can inform the House whether any peculiar circumstances prevented this being done? MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, a Com-regulated the import of all articles from mercial Treaty had been signed between France and Italy. He was not prepared to lay it upon the Table, as it had been communicated to Her Majesty's Government in confidence. With regard to the other two Questions, they seemed to have been asked under a misapprehension. The existing Treaty between England and Italy had been prolonged for another year. Italy was very well aware, as all the world was aware, that they were quite prepared to negotiate a new Treaty. The last Question, therefore, fell to the ground. THE SPANISH CUSTOMS TARIFF. QUESTIONS. MR. RYLANDS asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is the fact that, while the Colonial Office, with the consent of the Foreign Office, has still under its consideration an ordinance for aiding at Gibraltar the maintenance by Spain of its high protection tariff, the Spanish Government has been concluding a special Customs tariff, by which productions imported from Germany and Switzerland are charged at lower rates than those imported from England in those countries with which Spain had special Treaties. There were two countries with which Spain had Treaties of that kind-Germany and Switzerland. Those Treaties were made in 1868 and 1869, and under them those two countries would be entitled to have their goods imported into Spain at a lower rate than other countries placed under the general tariff. Sir John Walsham, our Chargé d'Affaires at Madrid, had been instructed to make a representation upon the subject to the Spanish Government, and to remonstrate against England being excluded from the advantages of the Most Favoured Nation Clause. MR. W. E. FORSTER asked whether there was any Favoured Nation Clause in any of our Treaties with Spain? MR. BOURKE, speaking from memory, thought there was; but he would give a definite answer if the right hon. Gentleman would repeat the Question. MR. W. E. FORSTER said, if there was a Favoured Nation Clause it would certainly seem to prevent any goods imported into Spain from Germany or Switzerland being received upon a lower tariff than goods from England. MR. BOURKE said, he had already stated that Sir John Walsham had been directed to remonstrate against Eng land being excluded from the Most that the Irish Local Government Board Favoured Nation Clause. found that the repetition of their views with regard to it had little or no effect. BOARD OF PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) -COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY. QUESTION. CAPTAIN O'BEIRNE asked the Secretary to the Treasury, At what time and place during the recess the inquiry into the administration and constitution of the Irish Board of Works will be held; if such inquiry is to be private; and, if so, will Irish Members of Parliament be permitted to attend; and, will the proceedings of said inquiry be laid before Parliament at some early period of next Session ? MR. W. H. SMITH: The Commission for the purpose of inquiring into the administration and constitution of the Board of Works in Ireland will meet at Dublin during the autumn. I cannot say if it will be private, but that will be the case in all probability. It will rest with the Commission to determine, in consultation with the Irish Government and the Treasury, the exact conditions under which it will be held. If they decide it shall be private, Irish Members of Parliament who may not be members of the Commission will not have the privilege of attending; but the proceedings of the inquiry will be laid before Parliament early next Session. THE QUEEN v. CASTRO-THE PROSECUTION-WITNESSES.-QUESTION. MR. WHALLEY asked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the detective officers Druscovitch and Palmer, whose conduct is now under inquiry, were not continuously employed on the Tichborne prosecution; whether there is any objection to state the amount paid to them for and in respect of such services; and, whether Jean Luie, a witness on the trial, and since convicted of perjury, is now in this Country; and, if so, in what prison? MR. W. H. SMITH: Sir, the detectives, Druscovitch and Palmer, were not in any way employed in the case. They had no connection with it at all. MR. WHALLEY: Are you sure? [Cries of Order!"] MR. W. H. SMITH: As to the witness Luie, I really do not know where she is. [Several voices: Jean, Jean!] Oh! Jean Luie. I do not know where he is confined. MR. WHALLEY: May I be allowed to address the latter part of the Question to the Home Secretary, and to ask whether the prisoner is in this country or not? MR. ASSHETON CROSS: I am sorry to say I really do not know. I was not aware that this Question was to be put POOR LAW (IRELAND)—REMOVAL OF to me; but if the hon. Member will repeat it to-morrow I shall be very happy to afford any explanation I can. SOCIETY OF THE HOLY CROSS-THE REV. J. LYLE.-QUESTION. MR. HOLT asked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Reverend John Stevenson Lyle, of Saint Thomas' College, Colombo, whose name appears in a list of the members of the Society of the Holy Cross, recently condemned by the English Bishops in Convocation, is chaplain to the Bishop of Colombo; and, whether the duties which Mr. Lyle has to discharge, in connection with Saint Thomas' College, render him in any way responsible for the theological education of native candidates for Holy Orders? MR. J. LOWTHER: I am afraid I can give my hon. Friend no information |